| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Non-payment of invoice and no reason given. Thread poster: JamesPH90
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Edward Potter wrote:
You need to act immediately. Some possible things you can do are:
- Visit them, if you are local to them.
A tad awkward since the agency is (or claims to be) in Ireland and the translator in the US.
Mind you, the Irish company, if any actually exists, could simply be a shell company without any significant assets, with all work/scamming being carried out in Farawayistan, in which case it could be extremely difficult or impossible to enforce any debt payment.
Also try to get them added to http://www.translator-scammers.com/translator-scammers-directory.htm if they aren't already, as many colleagues use it for reference.
| | | | JamesPH90
United States
Local time: 04:16
English to Irish
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TOPIC STARTER | Debt collection | Jun 5, 2022 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote: I would contact an Irish debt collection agency now, simultaneously informing the client that this will be done and that they will be taken to court if the debt is not settled in full within eight days. You could also add a low score to www.paymentpractices.net to warn your colleagues. I would also check in the Irish company register if the company actually exists.
Thanks. I am looking into debt collection agencies and solicitors who specialise in debt collection. Yes, the company does indeed exist; in fact, they have major clients in Ireland including several government bodies.
| | | | JamesPH90
United States
Local time: 04:16
English to Irish
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TOPIC STARTER
Edward Potter wrote: CillianH wrote: Natalie wrote:
Hi Cillian,
Have you checked the Blue Board BEFORE accepting jobs form them? This outsourcer is a bad payer, actually, they are banned from posting jobs at ProZ.com since several years.
Hi, no I did not check the Blue Board. I had never heard of the Blue Board up until a few days ago, to be honest. I worked as an in-house translator previously so my freelance experience is limited. I'll put it out there that they owe me approx. EUR 9,000 in unpaid, overdue invoices. Thanks for your response. [Edited at 2022-06-04 19:48 GMT] I started out thinking that you need to give them more time. Now alarm bells are going off. The main thing is that they have a bad Blue Board rating and are banned from Proz. Another worrying thing is that they are up to 9k euros in debt to you. You need to act immediately. Some possible things you can do are: - Call them on the phone. Keep trying. - Visit them, if you are local to them. - Find a local debt collector. - Give them a "1" on the Blue Board. - Consider hiring a lawyer. Good luck!
Hi Edward, thanks for your advice, which is noted and appreciated.
| | | | JamesPH90
United States
Local time: 04:16
English to Irish
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TOPIC STARTER | Translator/Agency location | Jun 5, 2022 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote: Edward Potter wrote:
You need to act immediately. Some possible things you can do are:
- Visit them, if you are local to them.
A tad awkward since the agency is (or claims to be) in Ireland and the translator in the US. Mind you, the Irish company, if any actually exists, could simply be a shell company without any significant assets, with all work/scamming being carried out in Farawayistan, in which case it could be extremely difficult or impossible to enforce any debt payment. Also try to get them added to http://www.translator-scammers.com/translator-scammers-directory.htm if they aren't already, as many colleagues use it for reference.
That's true, it does not make it any easier that I am in a different country to the agency. I split my time between the US and Ireland, so it will be possible for me to visit their office in person next time I'm there.
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There is something else you can do, which has occasionally been discussed in the forums. Since the translations haven't been paid, you still own the copyright to the translations (unless a signed agreement specifically gives the agency or end client the copyright before they have paid you).
Hence, you can legitimately put the end clients on notice that they cannot use these translations because they are unpaid.
There can be certain arguments against doing this, but you... See more There is something else you can do, which has occasionally been discussed in the forums. Since the translations haven't been paid, you still own the copyright to the translations (unless a signed agreement specifically gives the agency or end client the copyright before they have paid you).
Hence, you can legitimately put the end clients on notice that they cannot use these translations because they are unpaid.
There can be certain arguments against doing this, but your relationship with this client already looks pretty ruined, and they are not being honest, so I wouldn't hesitate to fire the whole arsenal.
Just be sure you are not violating any signed agreement that could result in penalties if you do this. ▲ Collapse
| | | | JamesPH90
United States
Local time: 04:16
English to Irish
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TOPIC STARTER
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
There is something else you can do, which has occasionally been discussed in the forums. Since the translations haven't been paid, you still own the copyright to the translations (unless a signed agreement specifically gives the agency or end client the copyright before they have paid you).
Hence, you can legitimately put the end clients on notice that they cannot use these translations because they are unpaid.
There can be certain arguments against doing this, but your relationship with this client already looks pretty ruined, and they are not being honest, so I wouldn't hesitate to fire the whole arsenal.
Just be sure you are not violating any signed agreement that could result in penalties if you do this. Interesting. I do not have "proprietary interest" in the Confidential Information supplied to me by the Agency, per the Confidentiality Agreement I signed. So I am not sure that I am able to claim copyright ownership of the translations (as the translations are derived from Confidential Information, i.e documents for translation). I am no legal expert so I could be way off on this.
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CillianH wrote:
Interesting. I do not have "proprietary interest" in the Confidential Information supplied to me by the Agency, per the Confidentiality Agreement I signed. So I am not sure that I am able to claim copyright ownership of the translations (as the translations are derived from Confidential Information, i.e documents for translation). I am no legal expert so I could be way off on this.
The agreement presumes they pay for it, but they have already breached the agreement themselves by not paying.
It has been debated before:
https://www.proz.com/forum/business_issues/279535-does_non_payment_void_nda.html
https://www.proz.com/forum/business_issues/330181-does_the_translator_own_the_copyright.html
Sheila Wilson once wrote: 'I did once contact an end client to alert them to my impending copyright abuse action against them. I did get paid by my own client the very next day, so it had the desired effect.'
Given how your client is behaving, I wouldn't hesitate if I were in your place. Agencies like that take advantage of translators who hesitate instead of act. Being nice to them has shown not to work, so you need to take your gloves off.
| | | | JamesPH90
United States
Local time: 04:16
English to Irish
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TOPIC STARTER | Contact an end client | Jun 5, 2022 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote: CillianH wrote:
Interesting. I do not have "proprietary interest" in the Confidential Information supplied to me by the Agency, per the Confidentiality Agreement I signed. So I am not sure that I am able to claim copyright ownership of the translations (as the translations are derived from Confidential Information, i.e documents for translation). I am no legal expert so I could be way off on this. The agreement presumes they pay for it, but they have already breached the agreement themselves by not paying. It has been debated before: https://www.proz.com/forum/business_issues/279535-does_non_payment_void_nda.html https://www.proz.com/forum/business_issues/330181-does_the_translator_own_the_copyright.html Sheila Wilson once wrote: 'I did once contact an end client to alert them to my impending copyright abuse action against them. I did get paid by my own client the very next day, so it had the desired effect.' Given how your client is behaving, I wouldn't hesitate if I were in your place. Agencies like that take advantage of translators who hesitate instead of act. Being nice to them has shown not to work, so you need to take your gloves off.
I will keep a cool head for the time being, send another reminder notice or two and if they haven't paid by the end of the month I will engage the services of a lawyer. I will contact the end client as a last resort and then move on. In the meantime, I will ask the outsourcer to re-clarify in writing its payment terms. A side note: the outsourcer is co-owned by a prominent Dublin-based Russian lawyer. She has been through the courts before in high-profile cases involving her translation agency, and won.
[Edited at 2022-06-05 22:46 GMT]
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| Hold your horses | Jun 6, 2022 |
Given their size, I suggest you don't burn your bridges just yet but ring them up and talk to them.
If they are who I think they are, it might just be a red tape/"computer says no" type thing that can easily be resolved amicably.
| | | | William Bowley
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:16
Spanish to English
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| Best practice | Jun 6, 2022 |
Your relationship with this agency isn't clear in the OP. Have a) they been paying your past invoices appropriately (in full, on time), or b) is this your first ever work for them with no previous payment?
Even assuming a), completing 9,000 Euros of work without any payment along the way is questionable at best. If b), then why are you still working with them?
As others mention, many companies have Irish "offices" but are not remotely "Irish". Stop working with them unt... See more Your relationship with this agency isn't clear in the OP. Have a) they been paying your past invoices appropriately (in full, on time), or b) is this your first ever work for them with no previous payment?
Even assuming a), completing 9,000 Euros of work without any payment along the way is questionable at best. If b), then why are you still working with them?
As others mention, many companies have Irish "offices" but are not remotely "Irish". Stop working with them until they pay you for your work. That's not burning any bridges; it's acting in best practice. ▲ Collapse
| | | | JamesPH90
United States
Local time: 04:16
English to Irish
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TOPIC STARTER
William Bowley wrote:
Your relationship with this agency isn't clear in the OP. Have a) they been paying your past invoices appropriately (in full, on time), or b) is this your first ever work for them with no previous payment?
Even assuming a), completing 9,000 Euros of work without any payment along the way is questionable at best. If b), then why are you still working with them?
As others mention, many companies have Irish "offices" but are not remotely "Irish". Stop working with them until they pay you for your work. That's not burning any bridges; it's acting in best practice. Yes, the very first invoice I sent was paid on time. The rest have all been late. The most recent 2 invoices have not been paid at all. The amount I quoted above is accurate. As for the relationship I have with the agency, I'm a sole trader and signed on as a "contractor" with them. I imagine many freelancers have a similar arrangement with the agencies they work with.
The agency's parent company registered in Ireland. I'm well aware of massive companies basing themselves in Ireland despite not being "Irish" -- it's one of the reasons why rent prices there have gone through the roof over the years.
Interesting to read the variety of responses, all of which are appreciated.
| | | | William Bowley
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:16
Spanish to English
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| Risk tolerance | Jun 7, 2022 |
Well, from your posts you seem quite happy to take this risk of non-payment, given that multiple invoices are late and you're only now questioning whether to keep working with them. That's up to you, but allowing this to get to 9k without appropriate action seems high-risk on your part.
Try informing them firmly and professionally that you will not complete any further work until receipt of full payment. Only if that fails start to explore the legal routes.
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Michael Newton 
United States
Local time: 08:16
Japanese to English
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"Given their size, don't burn your bridges". Since when has "size" ever been an indicator of a reliable agency? There are a number of "banned" agencies on the Blue Board which are humongous.
| | | | | Size is a positive marker | Jun 9, 2022 |
Michael Newton wrote:
"Given their size, don't burn your bridges". Since when has "size" ever been an indicator of a reliable agency? There are a number of "banned" agencies on the Blue Board which are humongous.
Since, like, forever. There are no absolutes, but a larger agency is less likely to scam you, less likely to fail, and more likely to have complex systems and procedures that can result in non-payment by mistake rather than by design.
Plus they have previously been a good/main source of work for the OP.
So it doesn't make sense to get heavy until you know for sure they're messing you around.
I hope the OP will update us once he has contacted the agency.
| | | | Katrin Braams
Germany
Local time: 14:16
Member (2018)
English to German
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| Send them proper reminders | Jun 10, 2022 |
It seems to me that you did not follow proper invoicing protocols.
First of all, did you generate an invoice in their system or did you sent them your own invoice ?
If they have a platform where you generated an invoice either on this invoice or somewhere in their platform it should be stated when your payment is due.
If you sent your own invoice you should have given a due date.
In both cases one week after the due date send them a formal 1st remind... See more It seems to me that you did not follow proper invoicing protocols.
First of all, did you generate an invoice in their system or did you sent them your own invoice ?
If they have a platform where you generated an invoice either on this invoice or somewhere in their platform it should be stated when your payment is due.
If you sent your own invoice you should have given a due date.
In both cases one week after the due date send them a formal 1st reminder where you ask for immediate payment up to June XY (3 working days).
If you are currently working on a project for them, stop this work and tell the PM that you cannot complete their project because you are not getting paid. This causes a major problem for the PM and most likely they will side with you and talk to their AP department.
If they don’t pay within the deadline stated in your reminder send them a 2nd reminder with another tight deadline and mention that you will take legal measures.
At the same time I would give them a bad review on the BB and in any suitable forum/on Google and wherever else you can think of. Make sure to let them know about that. Threaten to contact the end client to let them know that you are not getting paid.
Next step is a lawyer/dead collection agency.
But to have a valid case you need to have sent them a proper invoice with a clear deadline plus one or two formal reminders (depending on the legal requirements in Ireland).
For future jobs: Never allow a client to owe you that much money, particularly if it is a new client. ▲ Collapse
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