| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | Tolerance of Very (Very Very) Frequent Askers Thread poster: Fiona Grace Peterson
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Phil Hand wrote:
What is it about you that makes you unable to hit the ignore button and just accept that there are people out there who do things differently.
Perhaps you call this type of behaviour in KudoZ "doing things differently".
The sheer number of threads dedicated to the topic of KudoZ abuse suggests I am not alone in my thinking.
In any case this is simply an exercise in gathering opinions; at no time in this debate have I ever said I am party to some kind of Universal Truth and that everyone else is wrong.
As Lincoln said, "calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg."
| | | | Trisha F 
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:15
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Differently? | Feb 17, 2013 |
It is true one may choose to ignore. I don't even push a button, I simply don't read their questions. It's been a long time since I don't use KudoZ anyway because it kind of got on my nerves.
By "doing things differently" I would understand being creative and innovative. Asking too much is done by zillions of people, it is in fact an old habit of those who don't have the knowledge to carry on with their profession.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:15
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Where is the ignore button? | Feb 17, 2013 |
Phil Hand wrote:
What is it about you that makes you unable to hit the ignore button and just accept.....
There's an ignore button? Where is it?
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 18:15
Chinese to English
| Under the asker's name | Feb 18, 2013 |
Tom in London wrote:
There's an ignore button? Where is it?
Open a Kudoz question and just under the name of the asker there's a link to "flag or filter this asker"
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Cetacea
Switzerland
Local time: 12:15
English to German
+ ...
| Immoral? No. | Feb 18, 2013 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
3. Also, I almost get the impression that some answerers believe that if a translator has a text that raises e.g. 20 questions, that the translator will always be able to figure out the answers to the last 10 questions if the first 10 questions can be adequately answered, and that it is therefore immoral for him to ask the last 10 questions, as if asking them reveals thanklessness, laziness or lack of skill. What nonsense!
Unprofessional? Definitely! 20 questions per text on a regular basis do not reveal thanklessness (whoever even suggested they did??), but they definitely reveal lack of skill. Continuing to accept texts in areas one is clearly clueless about reveals a total lack of professionalism. Sure, we can all hit the "ignore button" (as so kindly suggested by Phil Hand), but isn't this supposed to be a site for professional translators?
As Trisha F puts it:
Asking too much is done by zillions of people, it is in fact an old habit of those who don't have the knowledge to carry on with their profession.
If you like to support the brazenly incompetent, that's up to you. But please don't try to turn it into an issue of "morality".
| | | | Edward Vreeburg
Netherlands
Local time: 12:15
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
| I really cannot be bothered | Feb 18, 2013 |
(even to read the entire discussion (again?) Basically Proz is offering point for answers, and some people keep asking and asking, in multiple languages on multiple subject matters of which they have obiously No Clue.
So the problem is : DO YOU as a professional translator want to help (and keep helping) people who are too lazy to do some research and take on jobs at low rates, for which they lack the competence to translate, and subsequently dump all the difficult words and phrase... See more (even to read the entire discussion (again?) Basically Proz is offering point for answers, and some people keep asking and asking, in multiple languages on multiple subject matters of which they have obiously No Clue.
So the problem is : DO YOU as a professional translator want to help (and keep helping) people who are too lazy to do some research and take on jobs at low rates, for which they lack the competence to translate, and subsequently dump all the difficult words and phrases on Kudos?
I've had people replying: "I'd rather take on a job that I have no clue about, then not work at all.." so I blacklisted, these types of members.
As a professional translator you have to wonder where unprofessional behaviour starts and how much time you want to spend helping bottomfeeders steal your work....
There is some balance between kudos points, fame and having a good feeling about helping other people and thinking wtf, why doesn't this person just outsource the part he obviously has no clue about....
Ed ▲ Collapse
| | | | pgschreier
Switzerland
Local time: 12:15
German to English
| My personal response | Feb 18, 2013 |
Excessive help for bottom-feeders (in this case through KudoZ) is one reason why I didn't renew my paid membership.
It's not so much the money for me but the principle. Perhaps the powers that be will take notice if there's a trend and then change policies.
Besides, in two years of membership I did not get a single reasonable query, much less a job, as a result of ProZ.
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The Ignore button is, I think, the best contribution in this never-ending theme.
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 12:15
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| A better idea might be... | Feb 18, 2013 |
George Hopkins wrote:
The Ignore button is, I think, the best contribution in this never-ending theme.
Even better might be if all answerers can see how many ignores the asker has. But that will never happen.
| | | | Shai Navé
Israel
Local time: 13:15
English to Hebrew
+ ...
| Proz is a community, even if an artificial one | Feb 19, 2013 |
Everything have been already pretty much summed up quite well in the discussion, and I just want to add some comments:
1) Is it against the rules? To start answering this questions another question should be asked "What is a rule"? It is not a violation of any law, but is it a violation of any other rule? Proz is community, maybe not in the purist definition of the word, but a type of community altogether. The mere fact that there are rules for operating in the various sections of this web... See more Everything have been already pretty much summed up quite well in the discussion, and I just want to add some comments:
1) Is it against the rules? To start answering this questions another question should be asked "What is a rule"? It is not a violation of any law, but is it a violation of any other rule? Proz is community, maybe not in the purist definition of the word, but a type of community altogether. The mere fact that there are rules for operating in the various sections of this website, Kudoz included, means that one cannot just do whatever they want and each community member must adhere to a certain set of "acceptable" behaviors. or otherwise be punished. Moreover, these rules are man-made and not a force of nature, nor do they are (supposed to be) set in stone, they could and should be adjusted and adapted according to the ever-changing reality.
2) Any professional field comes with some norms and codes. The Kudoz abuse (and its many other forms) described here should not be encouraged by any professional. Those who ignore it are indirectly contributing and participating in a race to the bottom, even if they don't think so or realize it (yet). Professionals should hold themselves and others to certain standard and code of conduct in terms of their profession. If a client would ask to get "a translation of just a couple of words and terms" every couple of days on a regular basis for free, most, if not all, would be livid and see it as most unprofessional and unethical thing to ask. However, when it comes in the form of a Kudoz question, so many are so keen to give their time and knowledge for free. At this point I want to stress that I'm referring to the various forms of Kudoz abuse and not to legitimate questions or consultations by fellow professionals, which by definition are more scarce to begin with.
3) Ignoring a problem is never the solution, and the amount of Kudoz abuse related discussions is a clear evidence that it is not just about different opinions, but that some acknoledge the broader issue that Kudoz abuse is just one manifestation of.
4) The cardinal sin that motivates and drives people to answer is the fact that Kudoz points are the ONLY criterion affecting the directory ranking. Ignoring for a minute the futility of the assumption that higher ranking leads to more/better projects, this correlation is absolutely ridiculous given that it doesn't represent any real measure or value about one's "professionalism" (read as skills, attitude, reliability, experience, knowledge). In fact it doesn't even serve as a reliable indicator of what it is designed for - proof of knowledge in certain fields because based on the level of questions, this alleged knowledge could be quite easily faked (many answers already just use the first couple of results in Google, so if reflects more on one's searching skills/available resources more than anything else).
Some good suggestions were made for changing Kudoz rules and adjusting the system, I have even devised one myself, but the more I think about it the more it becomes clear that no matter what will be done in the narrow aspect of Kudoz, it would be eventually abused, and unless there is a will and a plan to squash new abuse forms at the gates, it will be a losing effort. Therefore, I think that the resources should be allocated to changing Proz's ranking system. Make it much more representative of one's contribution to the community. Something along the lines Fiona has suggested. This will take out one of the main drives for serial answereres who have one goal in mind, while at the same time significantly improve the meaning of what the ranking are really about. I have sent my ideas on this topic to Proz as well, but to date haven't got any reply (still waiting though).
LilianBoland wrote:
I personally treat Kudoz as a kind of entertainment.
I'm not directing this personally at you Lilian, so please don't get me wrong, I'm just using this statement (that I've heard from many others as well) as a reference. This is our profession, encouraging abusive practices in a professional capacity that directly affect the profile of our profession is something that I just don't understand. Too many people I've spoken with about this subject has stated that they are using Kudoz as a mean to pass some time while waiting for new work to come, often failing to grasp the connection between the fewer quality projects available, questionable practices and the ever growing pressure on costs and what is going on in Kudoz. Kudoz abuse isn't the sole reason, but it is one contributor to that.
PatriciaHF wrote:
Maybe it is a little bit off-topic -or maybe not. But sometimes I wonder how it is that certain askers who seem to know nothing about the source language (i.e. not telling a name from a verb), or who don' t seem to know anything about the whole translation process, keep getting all that translation work while I am struggling -like many other good translators, to get stablished in this business and not being very successful so far. They are lucky indeed.
This is one of the problems. They use Kudoz probably out of two main reasons:
1) Lack of specialty and/or competency in translation, so to compensate they run to Kudoz. Some even use generic MT and then ask "non-pro" Kudoz questions to complete those places in which the MT failed to generate any output. A professional invested and continues to invest time and effort in education, specialty and developing his/hers skills, this includes subscribing and/or buying professional tools such as specialized dictionaries. Others use Kudoz to capture the hard earned knowledge and experience of others (and some seem to be really happy to just hand it over), not even bothering to buy a specialized dictionary in a field that the seem to be working in quite a bit.
2) They charge low rates and treat translation as a production line. They take anything at almost any rate and with any unreasonable deadline, so they don't have the time (or they are just lazy) and/or ability to research or "waste" time on figuring out their own. So, they dump everything in Kudoz and the end of the day just fill out the blanks in their so-called translation.
It should be challenging to get established as a professional, it should involve time and effort, success and fails; it is the only way to really gain experience and develop skills in the 'real world'. This also helps in developing respect to the profession. Until one experiences hardship and goes through what it takes to advance to a professional level, one cannot appreciate some aspects. Nowadays there are too many amateurs in all heavily freelance depended so called industries. Translation is no different. Kudoz is just a shortcut that amateurs and hobbyists who don't respect this profession take for the sole purpose of making some money. While this is unavoidable, the problem becomes more serious when this behavior becomes encouraged and actively supported by professionals.
[Edited at 2013-02-19 12:16 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Some actual numbers | Feb 19, 2013 |
In any community based on sharing there will always be net givers and net takers.
In any large set of data with statistical distribution you will find odd things towards the less frequent values.
When you accumulate data over 13 years some big numbers may be found.
If you look at all questions asked during the last 12 months, the two top askers posted on average 4.1 and 2.4 questions per day respectively.
Only five askers in the whole site post... See more In any community based on sharing there will always be net givers and net takers.
In any large set of data with statistical distribution you will find odd things towards the less frequent values.
When you accumulate data over 13 years some big numbers may be found.
If you look at all questions asked during the last 12 months, the two top askers posted on average 4.1 and 2.4 questions per day respectively.
Only five askers in the whole site posted on average two or more questions per day during the last 12 months.
Regards,
Enrique ▲ Collapse
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PatriciaHF wrote:
Maybe it is a little bit off-topic -or maybe not. But sometimes I wonder how it is that certain askers who seem to know nothing about the source language (i.e. not telling a name from a verb), or who don' t seem to know anything about the whole translation process, keep getting all that translation work while I am struggling -like many other good translators, to get stablished in this business and not being very successful so far. They are lucky indeed.
Tell your clients that you would accept any job for 0.02 USD per source word and I assure you you will be busy all year around.
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:15
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Phil Hand wrote: Tom in London wrote:
There's an ignore button? Where is it? Open a Kudoz question and just under the name of the asker there's a link to "flag or filter this asker"
Yes, I knew about that but it's so cumbersome! Instead of just flagging or filtering with one click, you have to (quote) 'enter that user's ProZ.com ID number (which can be found in the URL of the user's profile) or click "search" to look up the user by name.'
This seems like a very out-of-date way to do things.....
| | | | | I understand where Fiona is coming from... | Feb 20, 2013 |
Fiona Peterson wrote:
Interested to hear your views, as always.
Hi all,
Had a glance through the whole thread and read most posts. Am a recent user of ProZ. Answered a few questions myself. Posted one when I was genuinely struggling but found answer I was looking for almost simultaneously so removed question. My experience is therefore limited.
My points are:
- I only answer when I feel there's a chance for me to learn something,
- Points don't matter much to me: I don't contribute enough to ever get to the top. Besides it's obviously not the number of points earned that matter, but the ratio answers/points,
- I do not answer if I'm not in the mood (having a "don't suffer fools gladly" day),
(off topic) - In most cases the whole "game" is to be taken with a pinch of salt (too little context, and/or too little consideration of the context by answerers) ; however I feel that it sometimes leads to worthwhile debates,
- There is one asker I simply chose to ignore a few months ago. I feel one has to give sometimes, not just take.
As I said, I'm new to the site, but I don't see why those who manage it would want to change the rules (traffic, traffic, traffic...). However I think Fiona's question is relevant.
Regards,
Catherine
[Edited at 2013-02-21 07:52 GMT]
| | | | Mario Freitas
Brazil
Local time: 07:15
Member (2014)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| Free translations? | Feb 26, 2014 |
I've read some of the replies, not all. I see some people defend the frequent askers and some don't. Well, I'm among those who don't. They have the right to do it, some claim. Of course they do. But once they realize the eagerness for points in KudoZ, what they are doing is posting 50% of the documents they are translating, and getting a translation for free. The other 50% is the easy part and they can do it.
However, it's very, very easy to solve this issue. All that has to be don... See more I've read some of the replies, not all. I see some people defend the frequent askers and some don't. Well, I'm among those who don't. They have the right to do it, some claim. Of course they do. But once they realize the eagerness for points in KudoZ, what they are doing is posting 50% of the documents they are translating, and getting a translation for free. The other 50% is the easy part and they can do it.
However, it's very, very easy to solve this issue. All that has to be done is to limit the number of questions a user can make in a day and in a month. Or even in an hour, if necessary. ▲ Collapse
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