| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Should questions be posted on KudoZ by non-native speakers? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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| Using English as an intermediate language ... | Feb 29, 2012 |
Nobody has mentioned a situation I see occasionally, and it is possibly quite common: when a translator working in two less widely spoken languages, say Danish to Latvian, posts a question. (I was once marginally involved in a project of translation from Danish to Latvian, but it was far from unique.)
Practically no one answers KudoZ in those pairs, and there are very few dictionaries.
English is used as an intermediate language, because there is a good chance you can f... See more Nobody has mentioned a situation I see occasionally, and it is possibly quite common: when a translator working in two less widely spoken languages, say Danish to Latvian, posts a question. (I was once marginally involved in a project of translation from Danish to Latvian, but it was far from unique.)
Practically no one answers KudoZ in those pairs, and there are very few dictionaries.
English is used as an intermediate language, because there is a good chance you can find an explanation in English and work it out from there.
Many of these translators, to be fair, are not actually translating into English, and they know their English is not perfect. But other resources are scarce, and they need help.
They may not tell you every time that 'what I really want is the term in Latvian/ or insert any other language you like... '
Bear in mind that many of the jobs they do almost have to be done twice - first they have to find the terminology, possibly in English or another 'major' language, and THEN from English to the target language. Rates are not always high in 'small' countries either...
__________________
Admittedly there ARE those who ought to know better, and do try to translate into English when maybe they should not be translating at all...
I have blacklisted a couple myself.
The system cannot be designed to exclude one category and allow another, but at least sometimes it is worth giving askers the benefit of the doubt. ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X) 
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:35
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Not quite sure whether to laugh or cry | Mar 1, 2012 |
Kim Metzger wrote: Hi Lisa, is this the kind of product you had in mind? Eventmarketing with commensurable results Eventmarketing is real and emotional. It touches people and welds together. You report gladly from special experiences. On this basic of knowledge applied, eventmarketing is an effective way of communication. The challange for us is to design Events, promotions and incentivetours not only in real terms but also higly profitable. We create concepts with commensurable results, by focus on the clients target at the value-added proccess. Targets,... • which are directly relevant for the client. • which are influenced by eventmarketing. • whose return on Investment is commensurable. We quantify our success intimately. Commensurable results bring new insights for prospective troubleshooting and this Know-How gets the profit for our clients in the long term collaboration. Integrated with other instruments, eventmarketing so gets to an efficent communication channel. That is the way how we make events to a success together with our client, which we can read out of faces of the members and can be shown in data. This is our passion. This is eventmarketing with commensurable results and we enjoy doing it. http://www.festakt.at/index.php?go=text&id=3&lg=en
and this from a marketing company, which is all about promotion and veneer.
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This may well have been created within the company itself.
I am convinced that a considerable amount of material finds its way to websites without the intervention of a professional translator/editor/proofreader.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:35
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Sindy Cremer wrote:
This may well have been created within the company itself.
I am convinced that a considerable amount of material finds its way to websites without the intervention of a professional translator/editor/proofreader.
I agree, although at risk of going off my own topic it does illustrates the fact that many non-native speakers of English have a misguided perception that their English is better than it actually is and they can therefore do the job themselves (as evidenced by the numbers of non-native speaker questions on KudoZ). I don't notice this happening to nearly the same degree in other languages. None of us enjoy seeing our/a language massacred. I suppose that's what it boils down to.
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lidija68
Italy
Local time: 05:35
Italian to Serbian
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Sindy Cremer wrote:
This may well have been created within the company itself.
I am convinced that a considerable amount of material finds its way to websites without the intervention of a professional translator/editor/proofreader.
Well, that's right. When I said to one friend of mine, webmaster, not to use „google translate“ for translating websites he makes into english and german, he was very surprised. He was convinced it's ok.
| | | | | Who needs the natives? | Mar 1, 2012 |
lidija68 wrote:
Well, that's right. When I said to one friend of mine, webmaster, not to use „google translate“ for translating websites he makes into english and german, he was very surprised. He was convinced it's ok.
The example I gave might have been the product of Google Translate, but unfortunately real human beings who regularly seek help with "tough terms" in KudoZ actually produce similar work.
[Edited at 2012-03-01 17:01 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:35
Hebrew to English
| Is this not also part of the problem? | Mar 1, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
None of us enjoy seeing our/a language massacred. I suppose that's what it boils down to.
Agree, another problem is the "ownership" of English. Advocates of the globish/international English movement constantly tell us that we no longer have much of a stake in our own language and that the language has "outgrown" us...they tell us that by sheer numbers, the power (for lack of a better word) now lies with the non-natives....
Apart from being totally debateable, it also empowers non-native speakers to think that it is as much their language as to those who are born and raised into it....(those to whom English is actually their L1).
I think this feeds into the kind of arrogance you see on KudoZ and elsewhere where bizarrely over confident non-native speakers think they know better over the collective wisdom of native speakers. (The Eng-Eng pair is still as laughable now as it was in the time of the thread you posted from 2004, little has changed - for evidence see the Eng-Eng glossary where a recent entry claims that "enlisted" means "happy").
I think this explains why you don't see the same thing in reverse. Only in English are you told that non-native speakers are as much an authority on the language as native speakers.
[Edited at 2012-03-01 15:41 GMT]
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:35
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Like like like | Mar 1, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote: Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
None of us enjoy seeing our/a language massacred. I suppose that's what it boils down to. Agree, another problem is the "ownership" of English. Advocates of the globish/international English movement constantly tell us that we no longer have much of a stake in our own language and that the language has "outgrown" us...they tell us that by sheer numbers, the power (for lack of a better word) now lies with the non-natives.... Apart from being totally debateable, it also empowers non-native speakers to think that it is as much their language as to those who are born and raised into it....(those to whom English is actually their L1). I think this feeds into the kind of arrogance you see on KudoZ and elsewhere where bizarrely over confident non-native speakers think they know better over the collective wisdom of native speakers. (The Eng-Eng pair is still as laughable now as it was in the time of the thread you posted from 2004, little has changed - for evidence see the Eng-Eng glossary where a recent entry claims that "enlisted" means "happy"). I think this explains why you don't see the same thing in reverse. Only in English are you told that non-native speakers are as much an authority on the language as native speakers (despite being deeply flawed). [Edited at 2012-03-01 15:32 GMT]
Well done, couldn't have put it better myself. I can tell you the French wouldn't tolerate it, and rightly so!
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Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 20:35
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
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| New target language | Mar 1, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
Advocates of the globish/international English movement constantly tell us that we no longer have much of a stake in our own language and that the language has "outgrown" us...they tell us that by sheer numbers, the power (for lack of a better word) now lies with the non-natives....
That language is not English. It's Global Pidgin, English-based and varying greatly, reflecting the native languages of the speakers/writers.
Native English speakers and those who have achieved native proficiency translate into native English. All others translate into non-native English.
[Edited at 2012-03-01 17:04 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:35
Hebrew to English
| Agree, if only the distinction were respected/acknowledged | Mar 1, 2012 |
Michele Fauble wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
Advocates of the globish/international English movement constantly tell us that we no longer have much of a stake in our own language and that the language has "outgrown" us...they tell us that by sheer numbers, the power (for lack of a better word) now lies with the non-natives....
That language is not English. It's Global Pidgin, English based and varying greatly, reflecting the native languages of the speakers/writers. Native English speakers and those who have achieved native proficiency translate into native English. All others translate into non-native English.
I completely agree, the problem is that this distinction is frequently not made, ignored or avoided.
| | | | Rachel Fell
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:35
French to English
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| Reassuring... | Mar 1, 2012 |
to know that there are still some native English speakers around here Lisa/Ty/Michele et al.
| | | | | Back to the topic | Mar 1, 2012 |
- Should questions be posted on Kudoz by non-native speakers? -
For one particular client I frequently work from my native language into English because he feels that my native English colleagues ‘often miss the point’ or 'don’t quite get Dutch subtleties’. His opinion is based on extensive experience with native English speakers in the past. My work is proofread by a native English speaker, by the way.
Should I now be banned from asking questions on Kudoz?
... See more - Should questions be posted on Kudoz by non-native speakers? -
For one particular client I frequently work from my native language into English because he feels that my native English colleagues ‘often miss the point’ or 'don’t quite get Dutch subtleties’. His opinion is based on extensive experience with native English speakers in the past. My work is proofread by a native English speaker, by the way.
Should I now be banned from asking questions on Kudoz?
Many moons ago I read Dutch law. I understand the language of the Dutch legislator. I have several repeat clients who (oh dear, oh dear) hire me for legal translations into my source language, including a few law firms. Again, my work is proofread by a native English speaker.
Should I be banned from asking questions on Kudoz?
The suggestion strikes me as somewhat narrow-minded. ▲ Collapse
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XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:35
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Not if you are in the 'near-native non-native' category | Mar 1, 2012 |
Sindy Cremer wrote:
- Should questions be posted on Kudoz by non-native speakers? -
For one particular client I frequently work from my native language into English because he feels that my native English colleagues ‘often miss the point’ or 'don’t quite get Dutch subtleties’. His opinion is based on extensive experience with native English speakers in the past. My work is proofread by a native English speaker, by the way.
Should I now be banned from asking questions on Kudoz?
Many moons ago I read Dutch law. I understand the language of the Dutch legislator. I have several repeat clients who (oh dear, oh dear) hire me for legal translations into my source language, including a few law firms. Again, my work is proofread by a native English speaker.
Should I be banned from asking questions on Kudoz?
The suggestion strikes me as somewhat narrow-minded.
If you follow the thread back I think we had pretty much agreed that this rule did not apply to the 'near-native non-native'. From the samples of your writing on this post your English looks to me as native as you're going to get, but I stress that is VERY much the exception and not the rule. There are dozens upon dozens of people (if not hundreds) regularly taking part in these fora translating into English and whose language is utterly flawed (I very much doubt that they know it themselves).
[Edited at 2012-03-01 17:25 GMT]
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:35
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Which leads me to ask.. | Mar 1, 2012 |
How do those people with sub-standard English actually find out that their English is sub-standard, if their clients are readily accepting their work and not complaining?
| | | | | You're veering way off-topic | Mar 1, 2012 |
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