| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14] > | Proposal that people who post questions via the Kudoz system be obliged to provide context Thread poster: Helen Shiner
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Oliver Walter 
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:33
German to English
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| Almost no improvement possible | Dec 1, 2010 |
Helen, I agree with the spirit of your proposal but I doubt whether it can be implemented in practice. As Enrique pointed out, the "Ask question" page does, in effect, ask for this but, as you point out, without actually using the word "context".
I wonder what is in (or absent from!) the minds of the people who ask terminology questions without the required context. When I ask terminology questions, I always ask myself what the potential answerers will need to know to be able to give a goo... See more Helen, I agree with the spirit of your proposal but I doubt whether it can be implemented in practice. As Enrique pointed out, the "Ask question" page does, in effect, ask for this but, as you point out, without actually using the word "context".
I wonder what is in (or absent from!) the minds of the people who ask terminology questions without the required context. When I ask terminology questions, I always ask myself what the potential answerers will need to know to be able to give a good answer, and of course that influences what context I include with the question. (You can look at my "Asked" questions if you want to decide whether you agree!)
Perhaps the instructions on the "Ask question" page should include the suggestion to read the question as if you were a potential answerer and let that influence the information that you provide.
I suspect that looking at the (lack of) context provided by terminology askers will give some clue to how good they are as translators.
Oliver ▲ Collapse
| | | | Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:33
German to English
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TOPIC STARTER | @ Kim / Oliver | Dec 2, 2010 |
Kim - quite so. Such askers lose out, but unfortunately so does the Kudoz system.
Oliver - anything that would prompt people to provide better context or any at all would be good in my book.
I do see that this has been discussed many times now, and always fallen on deaf ears, so I guess the outcome for me will be that I will contribute far less frequently to Kudoz.
| | | | imatahan
Brazil
Local time: 12:33
English to Portuguese
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Sometimes it's exactly the lack of context that moves us to make questions.
I've received 4 jobs, one after the other, with lists on a theme, as for example tourism, games, medical terms... Little expressions or phrases, like, for example:
I have a severe toothache.
This medication is not effective.
This is a hit run.
It was a blue car.
Show me the color list.
For today, just trim it.
Which would you say is the context?
... See more Sometimes it's exactly the lack of context that moves us to make questions.
I've received 4 jobs, one after the other, with lists on a theme, as for example tourism, games, medical terms... Little expressions or phrases, like, for example:
I have a severe toothache.
This medication is not effective.
This is a hit run.
It was a blue car.
Show me the color list.
For today, just trim it.
Which would you say is the context?
Donate intermediate laboratory manuals
You have claimed the rewards for this task
Grade Six
It can increase 10 loyalty points of an employee by once.
place will receive the following rewards:
Sexy and charismatic
Status after the upgrade:
And now?
Of course, they are simple, but some expressions in the jobs are really complicated to understand.
So, to be radical and intransigent with other people would lead us nowhere.
Each one of us may receive a list like that to translate. And all of us pay ProZ. And some won't have the right of asking questions about his/her doubts! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:33
German to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Understanding context | Dec 3, 2010 |
Providing the list, rather than one term, is context. Saying what sort of text the term appears in, is context. Saying what the intended audience is, is context. All of this is available to any translator.
[Edited at 2010-12-03 00:46 GMT]
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Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:33
German to English
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TOPIC STARTER
No-one here suggests that people should not be able to ask questions. Perhaps you misunderstand?
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Helen Shiner wrote:
Providing the list, rather than one term, is context. Saying what sort of text the term appears in, is context. Saying what the intended audience is, is context. All of this is available to any translator.
And these relatively rare situations aren't what is causing headaches for pro translators. We all know about the exceptions: confidential material, lists on an Excel sheet, etc.
| | | | Rachel Fell
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:33
French to English
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Helen Shiner wrote:
Yes, it does look more and more as if the better contributors to Kudoz will withdraw their assistance. I wish Proz.com would appreciate that the quality of the service will suffer as a result.
Many of them already have done, while others are not allowed to offer it any more, or have been "excommunicated".
I know I am not the only one to feel frustrated - there would not have been so many discussions on this topic were that not the case.
Quite. Exasperating.
| | | | Cetacea
Switzerland
Local time: 17:33
English to German
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| That may be the crux of the problem... | Dec 3, 2010 |
Helen Shiner wrote:
Providing the list, rather than one term, is context. Saying what sort of text the term appears in, is context. Saying what the intended audience is, is context. All of this is available to any translator.
Sometimes I really do get the impression that askers don't know what "context" is, even though that seems to be part of the basic knowledge any professional translator should have. However, many askers simply don't seem to care, which is why I still think the best way to handle the problem is to ignore such questions/askers. Don't ask for context, don't offer advice, don't make suggestions, just don't respond any way at all! If nobody makes an effort for them anymore, maybe they will finally have to make an effort themselves... I can dream, can't I?
Having said that, I'd like to suggest to Enrique that it might make a difference if there was a certain minimum amount of text required to be filled in into that certain box that already exists. Just so that people couldn't get away with three dots or a smiley anymore.
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Jared is right, of course: some askers might actually be brazen enough to simply enter, say, 100 dots instead of just three. But I like to think that such behavior would finally put off people enough not to answer those questions anymore. Anyway, Kim's and Steffen's suggestions are certainly better than mine.
[Edited at 2010-12-03 20:42 GMT]
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Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:33
German to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Cetacea wrote: Helen Shiner wrote:
Providing the list, rather than one term, is context. Saying what sort of text the term appears in, is context. Saying what the intended audience is, is context. All of this is available to any translator. Sometimes I really do get the impression that askers don't know what "context" is, even though that seems to be part of the basic knowledge any professional translator should have. However, many askers simply don't seem to care, which is why I still think the best way to handle the problem is to ignore such questions/askers. Don't ask for context, don't offer advice, don't make suggestions, just don't respond any way at all! If nobody makes an effort for them anymore, maybe they will finally have to make an effort themselves... I can dream, can I? Having said that, I'd like to suggest to Enrique that it might make a difference if there was a certain minimum amount of text required to be filled in into that certain box that already exists. Just so that people couldn't get away with three dots or a smiley anymore.
I am wondering if Proz.com knows what context is and how key it is to translation. Maybe if they did, they would support us in this.
| | | | Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:33
German to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Rachel Fell wrote: Helen Shiner wrote:
Yes, it does look more and more as if the better contributors to Kudoz will withdraw their assistance. I wish Proz.com would appreciate that the quality of the service will suffer as a result. Many of them already have done, while others are not allowed to offer it any more, or have been "excommunicated". I know I am not the only one to feel frustrated - there would not have been so many discussions on this topic were that not the case. Quite. Exasperating.
Yes, unfortunately it is exasperating, particularly given the expertise of those who have stopped contributing or have been excommunicated. Why would Proz.com want the quality of one of its flagship features to suffer in this way? It certainly won't encourage good translators to the site, or keep them there, and it does Proz.com's reputation no good.
[Edited at 2010-12-03 14:14 GMT]
| | | | | The person with the need sets the parameters | Dec 3, 2010 |
Hello all,
As Enrique has already pointed out, the field to provide context when asking a question is already a required field; there are several different ways of making it "more required", none of which would achieve the desired results, however. For example, extending the required characters for the field means only that, should I as an asker choose not to provide context, I can put in "...................................................." rather than "....."
It may ... See more Hello all,
As Enrique has already pointed out, the field to provide context when asking a question is already a required field; there are several different ways of making it "more required", none of which would achieve the desired results, however. For example, extending the required characters for the field means only that, should I as an asker choose not to provide context, I can put in "...................................................." rather than "....."
It may be more productive to discuss ways in which askers can be educated or oriented when it comes to the relation between context and potential help. My own opinion is that this could provide much more positive results than introducing further restrictions. As Oliver mentions, perhaps this relation can be made clearer in the "ask" form itself.
Additionally, comments to the effect of "ProZ.com doesn't care", "doesn't know what context is" and so on, are incorrect. Site staff do listen to suggestions, take them seriously, and do participate in these discussions to the extent possible. Whether or not there is agreement over the implementation of a suggestion is a different matter, of course, but is not the equivalent of "ProZ.com doesn't care".
"The person with the need sets the parameters" is point six of ProZ.com's guiding principles, http://www.proz.com/about/cornerstones/ . ProZ.com the site is built around these principles, and ProZ.com staff use them when making decisions like this.
As I say, I'm all for helping to better educate askers in how a well-asked question can lead to a well-answered question. Any ideas on how that can be done?
Jared ▲ Collapse
| | | | Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:33
German to English
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TOPIC STARTER
There have been many offered in the various discussions on this subject. As I indicated at the start of this thread, making it clear briefly what context is (not merely as a link necessarily, which many people will just ignore, though this might be useful as an adjunct) would be a very good start. Using the term 'context' in your explanatory field should be essential.
Something along the lines of:
Please provide the full sentence in which the term in question appears (a... See more There have been many offered in the various discussions on this subject. As I indicated at the start of this thread, making it clear briefly what context is (not merely as a link necessarily, which many people will just ignore, though this might be useful as an adjunct) would be a very good start. Using the term 'context' in your explanatory field should be essential.
Something along the lines of:
Please provide the full sentence in which the term in question appears (altered minimally, where necessary, for confidentiality reasons) or if a bullet-point or term on a list, for instance, the surrounding terms. Please also indicate what sort of text the term appears within and the intended kind of audience, including the language variant (e.g. US/UK/international English).
There may be other essential elements. Then at least if this was not provided by askers, contributors would not have to explain, yet again, what context means.
[Edited at 2010-12-03 15:17 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Context: the parts of a discourse that surround a word or passage and can throw light on its meaning.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/context
Translation must take into account constraints that include context, the rules of grammar of the two languages, their writing conventions, and their idioms. A common misconception is that there exists a simple word-for-... See more Context: the parts of a discourse that surround a word or passage and can throw light on its meaning.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/context
Translation must take into account constraints that include context, the rules of grammar of the two languages, their writing conventions, and their idioms. A common misconception is that there exists a simple word-for-word correspondence between any two languages, and that translation is a straightforward mechanical process; such a word-for-word translation, however, cannot take into account context, grammar, conventions, and idioms.
http://mumbai.olx.in/translation-must-take-into-account-constraints-that-include-context-arabic-translation-iid-28737041
One of our members, Tom Funke, once (about ten years ago) prepared this note and gave me permission to quote it.
General note about context:
Ample context from the asker is both a valuable tool and a simple courtesy much appreciated by your would-be helpers. What’s more, providing ample context will motivate more translators – especially those with an analytical bent -- to engage themselves in providing answers.
Both to help your helpers invest their time efficiently in your behalf -- as you are requesting -- and to give you the best answers possible, it makes good sense to include adequate context in your queries -- as a minimum:
(1) a definition of the general context (subject matter), plus
(2) ample specific context: the entire source sentence (or more, say the whole paragraph -- excepting of course confidential/proprietary information, which can be disguised or omitted.)
Other useful information may include for instance the target audience/country and the purpose of the translation.
The purpose of this message is not to be critical but to be helpful – not merely in the context of the present question but also of improving the quality of KudoZ questions and answers in general.
All the best, Tom.
[Edited at 2010-12-03 15:39 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-12-03 15:40 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-12-03 15:40 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 17:33
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
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| Context in a broader sense | Dec 3, 2010 |
.. is not only a part of text surrounding the term, but rather the context of the entire document and full project background ( micro- and macro- context).
The term is interpreted within a surrounding (con)text, but also within a wider/full context. Having a good, professional vision and in-depth insight of the full source text usually helps tricky terms get cleared up by themselves.
And no KudoZ answerer can have a wider view of the full source material than the asker ... See more .. is not only a part of text surrounding the term, but rather the context of the entire document and full project background ( micro- and macro- context).
The term is interpreted within a surrounding (con)text, but also within a wider/full context. Having a good, professional vision and in-depth insight of the full source text usually helps tricky terms get cleared up by themselves.
And no KudoZ answerer can have a wider view of the full source material than the asker does, or at least that's how it's supposed to be.
[Edited at 2010-12-03 15:38 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-12-03 19:37 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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I like some of the considerations in the message you quote, Kim.
Let me see if I can re-work the text in that field in the "ask" form to more clearly indicate these points and the importance of providing context.
Jared
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