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Glossary entry

German term or phrase:

vieles ist noch im Enstehen krank;

English translation:

misconceived from the outset

Added to glossary by Chris Foster
Mar 10, 2020 15:37
4 yrs ago
37 viewers *
German term

vieles ist noch im Enstehen krank;

German to English Other General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters 1940s usage
This from a letter written in Munich in September 1946 to a relation in an internment camp in England: "Wohl erlebt man gute Ansätze vieles ist noch im Enstehen krank; vor allem fehlt der große Geist und der Schrei nach Brot und Weib übertönt alles andere. "

Does "krank" mean simply "wrong" or more "bizarre/weird"? Any insights gratefully received....
Proposed translations (English)
3 +1 misconceived from the outset
3 +2 doomed from the start
2 crippling recovery/the process

Discussion

Anne Schulz Mar 12, 2020:
Hallo Björn, in der Tat würde ich erwarten, dass im Jahr 1946 ein Student, der seine Weltsicht in einem handgeschriebenen Brief ausbreitet, der seine Sprache (bis auf diese eine Stelle) sehr gut beherrscht und der den Mangel an 'Geist' bei seinen Zeitgenossen beklagt, eine bessere Grammatik und Interpunktion hat als jemand aus dem 21. Jahrhundert, der seine Mitteilungen nach dem Motto "Es reicht doch, wenn man versteht, was gemeint ist" in die Tasten haut. (Damit wir uns nicht missverstehen: Damit bist nicht du gemeint.)

Und was "degeneriert" etc. betrifft: Das waren nicht meine Interpretationen des Satzes, sondern Beispiele, wie ich mir Konstrukte mit "noch" im Sinne von "schon" vorstellen könnte.

Best
Björn Vrooman Mar 11, 2020:
PS Interestingly enough, I do agree with what you said later on: "This seems to be a person who sees the chance for a new beginning, for change, for big things to happen, and he/she is frustrated to see the people around him/her just trying to survive after the war and missing the great chance he/she perceives."

However, I don't understand how this backs up your "Vieles degeneriert noch im Entstehen." It seems to me the opposite is true. If I misunderstood what you were trying to say, let me know.

Best
Björn Vrooman Mar 11, 2020:
Fourth, Michael's example sentence is not the same as the one we are talking about here. It reads "...sind gleich im Entstehen krank..."

However, gleich im Entstehen and noch im Entstehen aren't the same thing. If it were about gleich, I could agree with from but this is about "noch," e.g., the situation can still be rectified.

It says that right now, he sees some people doing good but also a lot of them not doing anything ("...ziehen die meisten eben...").

As soon as you introduce a word such as from instead of, say, at, you alter the meaning: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/de/worterbuch/englisch/at-...

Suggestion including the verb:
"Wohl erlebt man gute Ansätze vieles ist noch im Enstehen [sic]" krank. -> "Obwohl hier und da gute Ansätze vorhanden sind, krankt es noch bei vielen anderen Dingen."

This use of wohl as obwohl can be found in the Brothers Grimm dictionary; I won't disagree, though, that it could also mean durchaus.

As for "wird," I think that just proves my point. It's not about a process. At that time, despite some evidence to the contrary, prospects were bleak. This doesn't mean it's all going to the wolves.

Best
Björn Vrooman Mar 11, 2020:
@Anne Not only do I agree with Erik, but I think your misinterpreting the sentence.

First, it's a personal letter written in the 1940s. Do you expect the grammar to be flawless? Do you still write like people did 50, 60 or 100 years ago?

E.g., put a semicolon after Ansätze and a period (or full stop) after krank. This sentence can be rephrased, but I'll get to that in a minute.

Second, besides agreeing with Erik about "noch," I think it is important to list other words associated with "krank" (as was mentioned previously), in particular the verb, i.e., "an etw. kranken":
"durch einen bestimmten Mangel in seiner Funktionsfähigkeit o. Ä. beeinträchtigt sein
BEISPIEL
die Firma krankt an einer schlechten Organisation"
https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/kranken

This is in line with what follows: "...der Schrei nach Brot..."

Third, "noch," as Erik said, is something happening initially. E.g., there is the (I suppose odd-sounding) word of anfanghaft, a synonym of which is "im Entstehen begriffen": https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/anfanghaft

Similarly, John 1 KJV: "In the beginning, there was the WORD..."; the German translation used to be: "Im Anfang war das Wort..."

[...]
Ramey Rieger (X) Mar 11, 2020:
Agree with Anne Less moral, more annoyed and frustrated. You must remember, he is a student with the energy and determination of youth. The war is over and there are endless possibilities for reconstruction.
Anne Schulz Mar 11, 2020:
@Chris F I am not sure about 'moral' disapproval. This seems to be a person who sees the chance for a new beginning, for change, for big things to happen, and he/she is frustrated to see the people around him/her just trying to survive after the war and missing the great chance he/she perceives. Is that 'moral'? We would probably need a bigger chunk of text, including what leads to the phrase you quoted here, to understand the author's attitude and line of thought (which in turn determines the -presumably- intended meaning of "krank").
<br />NB: Regarding "krank", "ill" comes to mind as an English word with similar spectrum. Does that help?
Anne Schulz Mar 11, 2020:
Hi Erik, I know what you mean, but still – I would expect some verb of evolution or process with this type of "noch" (for example, a construct like "Vieles wird noch im Entstehen krank" or "Vieles degeneriert noch im Entstehen"), and the conjuction indicating the contrast to "gute Ansätze" is missing.
Erik Freitag Mar 10, 2020:
@Anne Today, this usage of "noch" is beginning to fall into obsolescence, but probably it was still more common in the 1940s. The entry in the current Duden doesn't list it as obsolete or archaic:

noch <Adverb> (in Verbindung mit einer Zeitangabe) [...]: räumt ein, dass es sich um einen den Umständen nach sehr frühen Zeitpunkt, sehr begrenzten Zeitraum handelt

Edited: I think the expression isn't as old fashioned as I initially thought.
Anne Schulz Mar 10, 2020:
Sütterlin writing, maybe ;-?
Ramey Rieger (X) Mar 10, 2020:
Hi Anne! Hope you're well! Yes, this is what puzzles me, too. Which raises the question for Chris, which format are you working with? Is this a screenshot? Or the original piece of paper? Could something possibly have been lost in reproducing the original text?
Anne Schulz Mar 10, 2020:
"Wohl erlebt man gute Ansätze(,) vieles ist noch im Entstehen" fits well; "krank; vor allem fehlt der große Geist..." is conclusive as well – but "vieles ist noch im Entstehen krank" just does not make sense. You would expect "vieles ist schon im Entstehen krank", plus some preposition like aber or jedoch to mark the contrast between "gute Ansätze" and "krank". Some text may have got lost between "Entstehen" and "krank", I think.
Ramey Rieger (X) Mar 10, 2020:
Krank I would recommend you view it in the verb form, not the adjective.
Ramey Rieger (X) Mar 10, 2020:
Hi Chris as I understand 'im Entstehen', the author believes reconstruction is misguided while 'in the making.' Things must have been horribly chaotic and the powers that be unable to satisfy basic needs, much less exercise a modicum of idealism for Munich's future. As a student, the writer would be gung-ho for radical change, I assume, and disappointed with developments. Therefore 'krank' is misguided, crippled, lame, pathetic, or more powerfully, twisted, perverted or just plain impossible.

Proposed translations

+1
21 mins
Selected

misconceived from the outset

Camp management may have been chaotic. Perhaps, measures to improve conditions were well-intentioned but messy or not workable in practice.

The letter writer seems to use "krank" as a figure of speech, not in its literal sense.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2020-03-10 17:09:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Compare with use of the phrase in this source:
"Meist wird das Ansuchen um Aufnahme einer Entgegnung ignoriert oder gar höhnisch abgefertigt. Man hat deshalb sogar besondere Zeitschriften für „Antikritiken“ hegründet, natürlich ohne jeden Erfolg. Solche Zeitschriften sind gleich im Entstehen krank und erlöschen nach wenigen Monaten klanglos." https://books.google.com/books?id=0I0tAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA702&lpg=...
Note from asker:
Thanks for the prompt reply, Michael. BTW, the author is not in a camp, he is in Munich and had just resumed his university studies so I assume he is referring to events in Munich (reconstruction efforts etc.).
He goes on to say: " Innerlich leer und ausgehölt ziehen die meisten eben die breite Strasse, weil sie wenig Anstrengung bringt weil sie vom Geiste nichts wissen, weil dies leichter ist and weil man dabei gut fährt. " I think he is viewing some of the rapid changes with moral disapproval, so perhaps more critical than "misconceived".
Peer comment(s):
neutral Ramey Rieger (X) : Hey Michael! Look again. The letter is TO the relation in a camp and FROM a relation in Munich. Easy to oversee.
11 mins
I suspect my solution still applies. Whether you're enduring the indignities of an internment camp or rebuilding your life in the rubble of Munich, ill-conceived action by those in charge will impact people's lives more than in 'normal' times.
neutral philgoddard : I like "from the outset", but I'm not sure "misconceived" is quite the right idea. Isn't it that the recovery efforts are not working very well because the problem is so huge?
49 mins
"Krank" looks to me like an expression of criticism; 'krank' equals wrong, inappropriate, ill-fated, bound for disaster etc.
agree Adrian MM. : though 'misconceived' might strike a sour note with some readers.
2 days 4 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks to everyone who contributed to this. I found Michael's quotation quite persuasive- the "im Entstehen" is important. It is easy now with the benefit of hindsight to make assumptions which are not actually supported by the text- I certainly read perhaps too much moralising into it. On the other hand, there was nothing to suggest impatience for more radical change. For the record we bought this original letter from Ebay for £2.50!"
+2
9 hrs

doomed from the start

Combined with the leading "Wohl erlebt man gute Ansätze..." this sounds like a 1946 account of the uncertainties of "what happens next" and "where do we go from here": the path forward from this lowpoint...

"Although positive initiatives are forthcoming, many/most are anyway doomed from the start....

vor allem fehlt der große Geist -> dispirited /low morale

und der Schrei nach Brot und Weib übertönt alles andere -> the basics still remain priority



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2020-03-11 00:47:18 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Just to add: The most *immediate predicament* of organsing the post-war necessities essential to daily life amidst such challenging circumstances...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2020-03-11 00:52:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"vieles ist noch im Enstehen krank" -> false starts that have brought no improvements

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2020-03-11 00:58:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And the idea debating the finer points of "reconstruction" in 1946 is totally absurd....
Note from asker:
Hi Chris, Thanks for your contribution. As I had the benefit of the whole letter, I have the impression that the author (who incidentally admitted that: "fehlt mir auch die volle Orientierung" that too many of the changes were being implemented without enough proper consideration. If you look at the timeline for Munich 1946 you can see that fairly major changes were taking place.
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard
11 hrs
agree Thayenga
12 hrs
Something went wrong...
30 mins

crippling recovery/the process

Low CL since I'm not really certain about how 'im Entstehen' is meant here.

(Although) We do see some positive developments/approaches, much is crippling the recovery/process. There is a dire lack of a greater spirit/higher purpose;the common/general roar for bread and wench is far louder/drowns all else out.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs (2020-03-11 07:43:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Good morning Chris,
The author is certainly offended by the people's vacuity and resignation.
Most people trudge through the avenue with hollow resignation, unwilling to make an effort, ignorant of the mind's power, taking a painless path easier to travel.
And, by the way, I'm Ramey Rieger, not Anne Schulz

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 18 hrs (2020-03-11 09:43:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

No, not morally! It's apathy the author is getting at. Resignation, disinterest, ignorance. He is more frustrated than holier-than-thou.
Note from asker:
Thanks Ramey, interesting take on "krank"-I also like "higher purpose".
@Anne Schulz: Hi Anne, Thanks for your contribution. Yes it took a while to transcribe the handwriting- I think it was actually a form of Kurrentschrift rather than Sütterlin. Have you read the subsequent sentence which is attached to Michael's response? I would be interested to know whether you think I am correct in detecting moral disapproval?
Good Morning Ramey, Sorry about the comment going to the wrong person. I just wondered whether in this case "krank" could imply something more like the English 'perverse' equivalent to morally degenerate?
Something went wrong...
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