| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Off topic: David Graeber Bulls**P Jobs - did you read it? Would you consider you have a bulls*** job? Thread poster: Anna Sarah Krämer
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Anna Sarah Krämer
Germany
Local time: 13:09
Member (2011)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I'm not a robot | Jul 18, 2022 |
Tom in London wrote:
...the assumption that everything we do must be "useful". I see no reason why everything should have an observable, quantifiable purpose.
In any case, translation is not useless.
Jan Truper wrote:
I think these are viable considerations, as I fear the plethora of zombies all over the world (including the translator’s community) that wittingly or naively ignore the impact of their own actions will ultimately lead to humanity’s downfall.
However, “real use to humankind” is setting the bar too high, in my opinion.
We live in a capitalist world, and I monetize my translation abilities in order to generate income, suitable for a living standard that I see fit.
As long as there are no redeeming systems in place (a decent unconditional basic income, for example), ***the best I can do is to be mindful that translation projects I work on do not inflict significant damage***. To this end, I refuse projects from fossil fuel companies, airlines, weapons manufacturers, religious nutcases and alike.
Okay, we might have to veer off topic even more into the realm of pure philosophy, but that's ultimately where it's at - an ethical problem.
Maybe I would want to change the word 'useful' to 'without actively doing harm' to describe the ethical problem I have with my work.
Because while it wouldn't cross my mind to accept a job where I go and burn down rainforest, pour barrels of poison into rivers, or forcefully remove people from their homes who cannot pay their debts, with every marketing translation I promote corporations who make this happen - who will take profit over any other human value. The problem is, even if I cut fuel, airlines, weapons and the like out of my lists of clients, I am left with IT - mostly an enormous bloated bubble that creates way more problems than it solves, agriculture and food production - mostly just about as evil as the petrol guys, finance - let's not start about that even ... it always leads back to a system that promotes profit over any human value.
And at same time, I have a family to care for. In the moment, best I can do is shift as much work as I can to content that is less spiritually violent (a provocative term, I'm aware, but let me throw it in here), and keep living frugally. And raise my voice to see if others out there also have that eerie feeling that everything is kind of topsy-turvy.
On the other hand, I'm not all doom and gloom. Living in a world where several times a day we tick little boxes to confirm we aren't robots is really funny at times.
| | | | | Even "useless" jobs are useful | Jul 18, 2022 |
- I think that translation is always useful because it enables people to make their own opinions. So when you translate something that you think is pointless or even wrong, you enable speakers of your target language to see that for themselves (or not – that is up to their own judgement).
- Translation provides steady revenue and flexible hours, i.e. money and free time that you can choose to invest in causes that are important to you or activities that you deem more useful.
- I pe... See more - I think that translation is always useful because it enables people to make their own opinions. So when you translate something that you think is pointless or even wrong, you enable speakers of your target language to see that for themselves (or not – that is up to their own judgement).
- Translation provides steady revenue and flexible hours, i.e. money and free time that you can choose to invest in causes that are important to you or activities that you deem more useful.
- I personally like translating educational, philanthropic and environmental content, so I try to find direct clients working in these fields and I make it clear to agencies that I will always prioritize these types of jobs over marketing content. You can devote a little time to finding new customers or specializing in new fields, and those "useless" jobs will help you stay afloat while you do that. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | One more thing to agonize about | Jul 18, 2022 |
I mean, agonizing about things is not my favorite pastime, but some people seem to be fond of it. Haven't read the book, though. There was a time in my career when I had to translate a great variety of texts, just had no choice (except that they mostly honored my request to relieve me of anything medical), and if I cared to think about it, I could link most of those texts to money-chasing efforts of businesses. Not the nicest purpose to serve. A series of video games, oil and gas articles, moto ... See more I mean, agonizing about things is not my favorite pastime, but some people seem to be fond of it. Haven't read the book, though. There was a time in my career when I had to translate a great variety of texts, just had no choice (except that they mostly honored my request to relieve me of anything medical), and if I cared to think about it, I could link most of those texts to money-chasing efforts of businesses. Not the nicest purpose to serve. A series of video games, oil and gas articles, moto trial tutorials, TED talks, U. S. pre-election debates, 3D printing, land treatment, water reclamation, polymer chemistry, algorithm development, hotel design, agriculture, frog studies, what not. Only a handful of those texts were bulls**t-free using the language of this thread. I used to specialize in legal and financial translations, and they are mostly bulls**t. Today, my main specialist fields are civil engineering and nuclear power engineering, but I'm also on the front line for anything else that may come our way, from unmanned aviation to marine navigation solutions. Again, greedy capitalists and their filthy lucre. The one good thing about capitalism is that it works. And yes, it would be nice if we could see it evolve into something with a lower bulls**t content (I'm not talking about socialism, btw). ▲ Collapse
| | | | | So change your specialist field | Jul 19, 2022 |
Anna Sarah Fazendeiro wrote:
But it's not really honest work. I would estimate that more than 80% of translation work in my language pair is some sort of marketing copy - so I don't really have the freedom of choosing honest projects, there are too few. Of the advertised products, maybe 10% serve any purpose different from feeding the bloated administrations of organizations with an ever increasing array of new products and services that nobody needed yesterday and everybody has to buy now! to avoid running their business in the ground (fear-based advertising containing the words "fast-paced" is one of my pet peeves).
You will have to forgive my bluntness. If you don't like the field you're working in, find another. Saying that you don't have the freedom to choose honest projects is a little dishonest. If you don't like doing marketing copy, don't do it. I've done legal and financial in the past and hated them both. So I changed. What's stopping you?
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:09
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Denis Fesik wrote:
The one good thing about capitalism is that it works.
A hunting rifle works. A hand grenade works. A nuclear bomb works. Heroin works. Just because a thing works doesn't mean it's good.
| | | | | Oh, did I write good? My bad | Jul 19, 2022 |
Tom in London wrote:
A hunting rifle works. A hand grenade works. A nuclear bomb works. Heroin works. Just because a thing works doesn't mean it's good.
I actually wanted to write that the 'it works' part was pretty much the only (potentially) likeable aspect of capitalism. It does the job of bringing consumption items to consumers, and it seems to be doing this more effectively than any other systems invented so far. A report has it that when Lenin announced the New Economic Policy that lifted the ban on enterpreneurship (I'm not claiming he had the notion to bring capitalism back, far from it, it's just a little example), people could find lemons on the market on the very next day — with hardly any bread on the shelves the day before. I don't think anything else about capitalism is likeable, which is why I'm hoping it will change
| | | | Anna Sarah Krämer
Germany
Local time: 13:09
Member (2011)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Thanks, I did need that | Jul 20, 2022 |
Fiona Grace Peterson wrote: Anna Sarah Fazendeiro wrote:
But it's not really honest work. I would estimate that more than 80% of translation work in my language pair is some sort of marketing copy - so I don't really have the freedom of choosing honest projects, there are too few. Of the advertised products, maybe 10% serve any purpose different from feeding the bloated administrations of organizations with an ever increasing array of new products and services that nobody needed yesterday and everybody has to buy now! to avoid running their business in the ground (fear-based advertising containing the words "fast-paced" is one of my pet peeves).
You will have to forgive my bluntness. If you don't like the field you're working in, find another. Saying that you don't have the freedom to choose honest projects is a little dishonest. If you don't like doing marketing copy, don't do it. I've done legal and financial in the past and hated them both. So I changed. What's stopping you?
Your bluntness is forgiven. I still think it's worth sharing these concerns and hearing the perspectives of others, but where dishonest whining is concerned you are correct, I could be a lot more active in finding more rewarding work. At least in translation we can find bs-free projects if we really try, not every profession has that privilege.
| | | | Kay Denney 
France
Local time: 13:09
French to English
Denis Fesik wrote: Tom in London wrote:
A hunting rifle works. A hand grenade works. A nuclear bomb works. Heroin works. Just because a thing works doesn't mean it's good. I actually wanted to write that the 'it works' part was pretty much the only (potentially) likeable aspect of capitalism. It does the job of bringing consumption items to consumers, and it seems to be doing this more effectively than any other systems invented so far. A report has it that when Lenin announced the New Economic Policy that lifted the ban on enterpreneurship (I'm not claiming he had the notion to bring capitalism back, far from it, it's just a little example), people could find lemons on the market on the very next day — with hardly any bread on the shelves the day before. I don't think anything else about capitalism is likeable, which is why I'm hoping it will change
But just look at how Texas is working, with the capitalists in charge (it's not).
Capitalism "works" at making rich bullies even richer, at the expense of everyone else, and now at the expense of the entire planet. When told that Miami would be under water in 100 years time if we carried on like this, the capitalists scoffed, who cares?!
The billionaires of this world have more money than they could ever spend, despite their very real contributions to global burning (one French billionaire produces more CO2 in three days than the average French person in seven years). You call that "working"?
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Kay Denney
France
Local time: 13:09
French to English
And to answer the original question, no I don't think my job is a bulls**t job. Translating the cartels for art exhibitions means that the very many tourists who come to Paris can learn about the works of art they are admiring.
I'm currently translating a set of hiking directions for people visiting the French countryside, and fitting in another text about the glories of a particular French wine, again, for the enjoyment of tourists.
I love visiting other countries and think it's g... See more And to answer the original question, no I don't think my job is a bulls**t job. Translating the cartels for art exhibitions means that the very many tourists who come to Paris can learn about the works of art they are admiring.
I'm currently translating a set of hiking directions for people visiting the French countryside, and fitting in another text about the glories of a particular French wine, again, for the enjoyment of tourists.
I love visiting other countries and think it's great when people have taken the trouble to write stuff in English so I can learn about the place I'm visiting. As the country that gets the most visitors, France has to do the same and I love helping out.
And I also do volunteer work with an environmental slant to appease my climate-anxiety. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kirk Jackson
Local time: 07:09
Member (2005)
French to English
+ ...
| It is what it is... | Jul 20, 2022 |
This is a great topic and I completely understand your feelings. It is actually a much deeper and more complex issue, in my opinion at least.
We are all serving the corporate beasts (the legal concept of corporate personhood also needs to be debated), hec most of us are S-Corps, but if you like your shiny toys and iPhones, this is the only system (an ant-colony-like, corporate labor force) that will provide them. It doesn't do much good to change careers, EVERYONE is serving the b... See more This is a great topic and I completely understand your feelings. It is actually a much deeper and more complex issue, in my opinion at least.
We are all serving the corporate beasts (the legal concept of corporate personhood also needs to be debated), hec most of us are S-Corps, but if you like your shiny toys and iPhones, this is the only system (an ant-colony-like, corporate labor force) that will provide them. It doesn't do much good to change careers, EVERYONE is serving the beasts and again most jobs are bull*^&* jobs anyways, it just may be more obvious to translators working in the financial/legal fields.
Even if you want to resort to farming and peasantry (which I love), you still have to pay your property taxes or the corporate governments will forcibly take the land from you, and the only way to get the fiat paper (soon to be digital Mario coins) to pay the property taxes (which should be illegal), is to at some point play the game
If you're a skilled translator, it is still (barely) one of the best ways to earn a living in the system, otherwise you have to spend more time working at another bull@#&# job to earn the same amount of money. Plus, if you're a translator you are most likely a lover of languages and it is still (barely) an enjoyable profession (now barely a profession though) and a great way to maintain your language skills.
Personally I like to focus on the opportunities that this corporate system has created. For instance, you can take advantage of the freely available information (Youtube University) to gain skills such as small-scale farming (permaculture) skills in addition to having access to seeds / plants / books that "back in the day" would have been inaccessible.
I just do my best, spend time with nature, spend time with family, focus locally, treat others like I would like to be treated, stay active, eat healthy, and most importantly, ignore the CLOWN SHOW (i.e. politics, news, entertainers, etc.) ... Cheers ~ ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 07:09
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Seems like less than a ringing endorsement | Jul 21, 2022 |
Kirk Jackson wrote: {...} If you're a skilled translator, it is still (barely) one of the best ways to earn a living in the system, otherwise you have to spend more time working at another bull@#&# job to earn the same amount of money. Plus, if you're a translator you are most likely a lover of languages and it is still (barely) an enjoyable profession (now barely a profession though) and a great way to maintain your language skills. {...}
The house is located in a high-crime area, its foundation is crumbling and, on top of that, the place is infested with termites.
Other than that, it is a fine home indeed.
[Edited at 2022-07-22 16:29 GMT]
| | | | | I come from Soviet Russia, after all | Jul 21, 2022 |
Kay Denney wrote:
But just look at how Texas is working, with the capitalists in charge (it's not).
Capitalism "works" at making rich bullies even richer, at the expense of everyone else, and now at the expense of the entire planet. When told that Miami would be under water in 100 years time if we carried on like this, the capitalists scoffed, who cares?!
I know all about this line of reasoning, they taught it to us in high school. But still, I won't tolerate any Marxism where I am. Not with the new set of oppressor classes that seems to be taking shape. The Bolsheviks weren't sissies, they set about destroying and exiling ex-oppressors with vigor. Today's neo-Marxists think it's sufficient to have them canceled. I heard a talk with a man who'd lived in Canada for many years, and he said whenever he wanted to talk to someone from the left wing about the Soviet history, from which they'd certainly learn a few lessons, they'd do their best to escape the conversation as soon as possible, and there was fear in their eyes. I thought I'd made my views on capitalism quite clear. I do support the enterprising, risk-taking spirit in people, I don't want to see it suppressed or private property abolished, I don't believe in forced equalization of everything and everyone, but I am aware of the abominations of capitalism either. P. S.: this thread seems to be getting off-topic
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P.L.F. Persio
Netherlands
Local time: 13:09
Member (2010)
English to Italian
+ ...
| You're talking sense, Denis, it's never off-topic | Jul 22, 2022 |
Denis Fesik wrote: Kay Denney wrote:
But just look at how Texas is working, with the capitalists in charge (it's not).
Capitalism "works" at making rich bullies even richer, at the expense of everyone else, and now at the expense of the entire planet. When told that Miami would be under water in 100 years time if we carried on like this, the capitalists scoffed, who cares?! I know all about this line of reasoning, they taught it to us in high school. But still, I won't tolerate any Marxism where I am. Not with the new set of oppressor classes that seems to be taking shape. The Bolsheviks weren't sissies, they set about destroying and exiling ex-oppressors with vigor. Today's neo-Marxists think it's sufficient to have them canceled. I heard a talk with a man who'd lived in Canada for many years, and he said whenever he wanted to talk to someone from the left wing about the Soviet history, from which they'd certainly learn a few lessons, they'd do their best to escape the conversation as soon as possible, and there was fear in their eyes. I thought I'd made my views on capitalism quite clear. I do support the enterprising, risk-taking spirit in people, I don't want to see it suppressed or private property abolished, I don't believe in forced equalization of everything and everyone, but I am aware of the abominations of capitalism either. P. S.: this thread seems to be getting off-topic
We can have entrepreneurship, free market, and private property, while being active in stopping exploitation, human rights abuse, making profits for profits' sake, treating people like cannon fodder, or cogs in a machine.
If someone makes more money than me without cheating, robbing, stealing, murdering, I'm glad for them, I cheer them and salute them: Good for you, and pay your taxes!
I just want bread and roses, respect, fairness and dignity for all.
@Anna Sarah Fazendeiro: You seem to be ready to walk the walk, so I wish you a long, panoramic road paved with good projects and serendipitous moments.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:09
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Tear it down | Jul 22, 2022 |
I'm for tearing down the whole rotten thing.
| | | | | Pactum serva | Jul 23, 2022 |
It would feel great to be part of a system where pactum serva is a thing. But today, it seems to be failing. It still works at the level of individuals of a certain kind, but seems to be well rotten in general. I'm not supposed to have a nostalgia for a world where pactum serva reigned supreme, but the feeling I have about it is certainly nostalgia-like, and it comes from reading too many books for my own good. Some philosophers say we haven't been living too well over here because... See more It would feel great to be part of a system where pactum serva is a thing. But today, it seems to be failing. It still works at the level of individuals of a certain kind, but seems to be well rotten in general. I'm not supposed to have a nostalgia for a world where pactum serva reigned supreme, but the feeling I have about it is certainly nostalgia-like, and it comes from reading too many books for my own good. Some philosophers say we haven't been living too well over here because our ancestors didn't read Aristotle, they had no good translations back then and preferred Plato. But then, Aristotles's ideas weren't supposed to apply to everyone, only to those of free birth for whom eudaimonia and areté were pretty much the same thing. The people who took over that standard in medieval Europe were the noble, some of whom might have been a**holes but you could expect things from them, like how they would treat women or what they would lay their lives down for. Since the time France married an old woman (which is how Vasily Rozanov described the revolution with les aristocrates à la lanterne), the Aristotle project technically began to apply to everyone, but that development eventually miscarried. However, we could still see fine examples of it working by inertia in certain countries until quite recently. Today, I just have to agree that things are breaking down, all we can do build our own professional and everyday life as if things stood as they did in the golden age of humankind (if there ever was one)
[Edited at 2022-07-23 11:59 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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