| Počet stránok v téme: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Translating from mother tongue into second language Nadvädzujúci príspevok na vyvesovateľa: dcanossa
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Nicole Schnell 
Spojené štáty
Local time: 10:26
angličtina -> nemčina
+ ...
Na pamiatku | In rare cases it makes sense | Aug 17, 2011 |
Diego Canossa wrote:
I occasionally come across agencies posting job offers looking for translators to translate from their mother tongue into their second language, even restricting the possibility of replying to the posts to only those translators who meet that particular criteria.
Especially in market research (the replies to web surveys are the worst) when all the replies need to be deciphered first because they often are "written" in slang or colloquial language at best and are crawling with typos beyond recognition. It takes a native speaker of the source language to fight his way through this jungle.
It also makes sense when the source language is antiquated and in particular when the translator has to deal with handwritten text.
If the translation is then edited by a native speaker of the target language, this kind of teamwork will result in an excellent translation.
| | | | Dave Bindon
Grécko
Local time: 20:26
gréčtina -> angličtina
Na pamiatku | Agree totally | Aug 17, 2011 |
Neil Coffey wrote:
When we say "native speaker", there's an inherent assumption, I think, that we mean a native language that you have acquired to the level of a normal educated adult speaker of that language.
I agree totally. I don't care where someone was born, or where their parents were born. The term "native speaker" is something I'd use for anyone with the ability to write and speak like someone who was born and bred in the country of their so-called native language.
| | | | Phil Hand
Èína
Local time: 02:26
čínština -> angličtina
| Quality/Native language/Rare languages | Aug 17, 2011 |
This is a debate that never gets old!
On the quality issue: I think a lot of commenters in this thread, and the ATA, and me, have a definition of a translator that runs something like this: a translator is a skilled and versatile writer of high quality prose in their target language (necessarily their native language, because with the exception of Nabokov and Beckett, you never get *really* good in your second language); who is a highly skilled and experienced reader in their source... See more This is a debate that never gets old!
On the quality issue: I think a lot of commenters in this thread, and the ATA, and me, have a definition of a translator that runs something like this: a translator is a skilled and versatile writer of high quality prose in their target language (necessarily their native language, because with the exception of Nabokov and Beckett, you never get *really* good in your second language); who is a highly skilled and experienced reader in their source language(s); and who has very strong technical proficiency in transferring meaning between the two.
That's a good definition. However, I actually think the need for translation at the level of quality (and cost) that that definition implies is very small. In the vast majority of cases, an awkward, dodgy, even erroneous translation will get the job done. I'm a big fan of being high-end and high quality, but I don't think those of us who work to high standards and charge a lot should fool ourselves that the world would stop turning if we didn't translate the term for "truncated steam pipe" exactly right. We're a luxury service. In English, German and French, that luxury service has become kind of standard, but the vast majority of the world's languages are translated badly and by people who don't come anywhere near to fitting the definition above. And the countries involved manage to get by.
On the question of native languages: Ambrose, I know you've got a bee in your bonnet about this, but I kind of think you have to accept that people generally know what is meant by a native language. In interpreting the definition of an A language is pretty clear (a language in which you were raised, in which you were educated, and in which you can speak at a highly professional level), and for translating, we're thinking much the same thing. Some people don't have A languages in the interpreting sense of the word (Singaporeans spring to mind!); and some people don't have full native languages in the sense I meant in my definition above.
Like I say, I don't think that means you shouldn't be a translator, but it does mean that you (impersonal you, I don't actually know anything about your personal situation!) aren't going to be a translator in that classic ATA style definition.
Rare languages: Please try not to forget some of the biggest languages on the planet. My source language for a start: the vast majority of Chinese>English translation is done by Chinese natives, not English natives. That's also true of a lot of Japanese translation. These are big language pairs. European types: please remember the rest of the world!
So finally to the original question: why do some jobs call for natives speakers of the source language? I agree with the way Heinrich put it: arrogance and ignorance.
I've been in more situations like the one Dave describes than I care to count. Just this evening I was at a dinner where some guests started expounding on how Chinese proverbs couldn't possibly be translated because they're so subtle. It's depressing to hear stuff like that, but hey, these guys aren't my target market. I haven't worked for Chinese agencies/clients for a while now, because they don't pay enough. So what do I care about their misconceptions? :-/ ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand
Èína
Local time: 02:26
čínština -> angličtina
| Survey responses | Aug 17, 2011 |
It's interesting you say that, Nicole. I've been thinking about doing some marketing to get some more survey response jobs, on the grounds that you need a target-native translator to make clear the nuances of what the respondents say.
If they're handwritten responses, I definitely need native speaker support, but the potential for messing up the adverbs of level (fairly/quite/very) in English is enormous. I've never seen a native Chinese translator who could use them with any level of acc... See more It's interesting you say that, Nicole. I've been thinking about doing some marketing to get some more survey response jobs, on the grounds that you need a target-native translator to make clear the nuances of what the respondents say.
If they're handwritten responses, I definitely need native speaker support, but the potential for messing up the adverbs of level (fairly/quite/very) in English is enormous. I've never seen a native Chinese translator who could use them with any level of accuracy.
You're right to say teamwork is the best option. ▲ Collapse
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Nicole Schnell
Spojené štáty
Local time: 10:26
angličtina -> nemčina
+ ...
Na pamiatku
Phil Hand wrote:
It's interesting you say that, Nicole. I've been thinking about doing some marketing to get some more survey response jobs, on the grounds that you need a target-native translator to make clear the nuances of what the respondents say.
If they're handwritten responses, I definitely need native speaker support, but the potential for messing up the adverbs of level (fairly/quite/very) in English is enormous. I've never seen a native Chinese translator who could use them with any level of accuracy.
You're right to say teamwork is the best option.
I don't know about other language pairs - but especially in German-English translations a lot of the slight sarcasm, irony and subtle humor that the Germans are darn' good at often seems to get lost in translation.
| | | | Tom in London
Spojené krá¾ovstvo
Local time: 18:26
Člen (2008)
taliančina -> angličtina
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
In advertising it has been proven that often no one understands what the stuff really is about. Slogans that have no meaning at all.
That's quite wrong. I do a lot of work in this field. Advertising is carefully-designed to appeal to its target, and uses language in very calculated ways. It isn't guesswork.
[Edited at 2011-08-17 19:17 GMT]
| | | | Nicole Schnell
Spojené štáty
Local time: 10:26
angličtina -> nemčina
+ ...
Na pamiatku | Example for Phil | Aug 17, 2011 |
If you find a reply in a survey that reads: "Oh, es ist ganz wunderbar!" (literally: "Oh, it is really wonderful!") the literal translation will be a mistranslation because it most likely means the opposite, i.e. the electronic device in question sucks.
| | | | Phil Hand
Èína
Local time: 02:26
čínština -> angličtina
| Nice example | Aug 17, 2011 |
For me, that's a case where you'd really need an English native translator. Obviously they'd have to be up to scratch with their informal & conversational German, to "get" what the respondent means. But I think it would really take a native speaker to be able to reliably reproduce that effect in English. You'd have to be certain that you'd never mess up the difference between "yes" and "yeah", or "right." and "that's right". A good native-German translator who gets the respondent's meaning but d... See more For me, that's a case where you'd really need an English native translator. Obviously they'd have to be up to scratch with their informal & conversational German, to "get" what the respondent means. But I think it would really take a native speaker to be able to reliably reproduce that effect in English. You'd have to be certain that you'd never mess up the difference between "yes" and "yeah", or "right." and "that's right". A good native-German translator who gets the respondent's meaning but doesn't word the English version quite right could easily invert the meaning, as you suggest. ▲ Collapse
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Nicole Schnell
Spojené štáty
Local time: 10:26
angličtina -> nemčina
+ ...
Na pamiatku | That's where the native speaker of the target language comes in | Aug 17, 2011 |
Phil Hand wrote:
For me, that's a case where you'd really need an English native translator. Obviously they'd have to be up to scratch with their informal & conversational German, to "get" what the respondent means. But I think it would really take a native speaker to be able to reliably reproduce that effect in English. You'd have to be certain that you'd never mess up the difference between "yes" and "yeah", or "right." and "that's right". A good native-German translator who gets the respondent's meaning but doesn't word the English version quite right could easily invert the meaning, as you suggest.
Exactly. Which is why I will never understand why so many translation agencies suppress any direct contact between translator and editor.
Ha! It should have read "target language" in the headline, not "source" as I wrote by mistake. Oops.
[Edited at 2011-08-17 19:46 GMT]
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Španielsko
Local time: 18:26
Člen (2007)
angličtina
+ ...
| AI can mean "arrogant ignorance", too | Aug 17, 2011 |
Universities and "grandes écoles" here in France sometimes actually encourage translator students to specialise in English to French. I have first-hand evidence of this from job-seekers who attend my "inernational job-seekers' workshop". Because their English level is so much higher than the average (pitifully-low) level in France, they are made to think they have some sort of sought-after skill. I can often chat to them in English - they are fluent speakers - but still their CVs and letters ar... See more Universities and "grandes écoles" here in France sometimes actually encourage translator students to specialise in English to French. I have first-hand evidence of this from job-seekers who attend my "inernational job-seekers' workshop". Because their English level is so much higher than the average (pitifully-low) level in France, they are made to think they have some sort of sought-after skill. I can often chat to them in English - they are fluent speakers - but still their CVs and letters are full of superfluous definite articles, nouns preceding adjectives, months with no capital letter, and sentences such as "I am a professional translator since 2 years". We often chat in French, too, and they are amazed when I say I would NEVER accept money for an En-Fr translation (although payment in wine is OK). It is often the first time that they have stopped to think whether "foreigners" might actually be able to do it better! If that doesn't define "arrogant ignorance", I'm a Dutchwoman! (en ik ben niet nederlands!)
I realise that "native language" can by hard to define - my own son spoke English at home until 18, but from 7, life outside the home has been in French. I know he makes some mistakes in English (e.g. "interested by"), but his language is at the same time extremely colloquial. French speakers have assured me that his written French is far superior to most of the locals in this wine-producing region. So, which way should he translate? He has done both but doesn't enjoy either.
If you have formally studied a language, even to the level of PhD, but don't have a native-speaking parent and didn't spend formative years immersed in the language - can you really hope do it better than a true native speaker? ▲ Collapse
| | | | hazmatgerman (X)
Local time: 19:26
angličtina -> nemčina
schnell and pesch in their posts. i recall a lively discussion elswhere about german "na also, geht doch." simple sentence, but all non-german translators save one missed the irony.
regards
[Edited at 2011-08-17 20:42 GMT]
| | | | | AI (arrogant ignorance) seems to be the norm in the Czech Republic | Aug 17, 2011 |
Dear Sheila,
I agree so much with all that you said in your last post, that I don't even have to quote certain parts from it.
Here in the Czech Republic, I had the opportunity to follow the change of clients priorities along the time this country has been an EU member state now and in the time before 2004.
I started to translate from Czech to German for a bigger Czech agency inhouse in 1997. Demand was high, rates where pretty good in comparison to the aver... See more Dear Sheila,
I agree so much with all that you said in your last post, that I don't even have to quote certain parts from it.
Here in the Czech Republic, I had the opportunity to follow the change of clients priorities along the time this country has been an EU member state now and in the time before 2004.
I started to translate from Czech to German for a bigger Czech agency inhouse in 1997. Demand was high, rates where pretty good in comparison to the average salaries in this country and so it was a pleasure for me to translate into native German from Czech inside this country.
One should think things should get even better, the more foreign investors are inside the country and the easier foreign trade is over here, after the Czech Republic became a full EU member state. The opposite is true!
I would call my story over here since 2003 "The extegration (sorry, if such a word doesn't exist yet, it has to be invented) of the German native speaker from the Czech market". This year I didn't have a single assignment from a Czech customer yet. What keeps my translation business and my family alive are assignments from abroad (mostly from the German speaking countries).
And I think it is not a coincidence that Czech clients became that mean a year before and after their entry to the EU club in 2004. My feeling is, that an unwritten law is ruling this country now, and that is "Don't give any money to foreigners!".
So in Phil's case maybe really it's just a question of availability of native speakers of English to translate from Chinese. There are simply not enough.
But in my case (from Czech to German), I am living among them in their capital, two families of lawyers are living in our house right above our flat, regularly I am telling them about the situation in my business and they simply don't want me, because I am asking for decent rates.
AI is winning.
Very bad! This is globalized market economy ...
René Stranz-Nikitin
www.uersn.de
Please note that English is neither my target language nor one of my source languages. ▲ Collapse
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dcanossa
Španielsko
Local time: 19:26
angličtina -> španielčina
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I'm still wondering why "ban" native speakers... | Aug 18, 2011 |
I've been carefully reading all the comments and they are all very interesting. However, my main concern was that these agencies simply do NOT accept translators working into their native language (yes, it's been German and Dutch agencies, by the way). It just seems to be odd (maybe there is arrogance and ignorance, as suggested).
I am not saying that a German can't translate into Spanish, and I am not saying that a German can't speak Spanish even better than some native Spanish spe... See more I've been carefully reading all the comments and they are all very interesting. However, my main concern was that these agencies simply do NOT accept translators working into their native language (yes, it's been German and Dutch agencies, by the way). It just seems to be odd (maybe there is arrogance and ignorance, as suggested).
I am not saying that a German can't translate into Spanish, and I am not saying that a German can't speak Spanish even better than some native Spanish speakers (I know many people in my country who speak our own language terribly bad, not to mention how they write it...). What I am saying is these agencies shouldn't simply "ban" translators working into their native languages. They may have a reason (handwritten text, for example), but still, as someone suggested, it should definitely be proofread.
Someone else said that some technical texts don't necessarily have to be grammatically correct. Let me disagree with that. While it is true that you may be able to understand the translated text, I have to say that I've come across some User's Guides and such that are simply horrifying. I find it easier to learn how to use the device on my own than trying to understand what they tried to say in the manual. And always remember, one single word can make a big difference, which may lead to a big mistake when following the instructions in a car's service manual, for instance. If we translators "accept" a certain level of inaccuracy, what can we expect from potential clients who can use Google Translate for free? If they were to choose between "paid inaccuracy" and "unpaid inaccuracy", they'd go for the latter, wouldn't they? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Neil Coffey
Spojené krá¾ovstvo
Local time: 18:26
francúzština -> angličtina
+ ...
| "Erroneous translation will get the job done" | Aug 18, 2011 |
Phil Hand wrote:
That's a good definition. However, I actually think the need for translation at the level of quality (and cost) that that definition implies is very small. In the vast majority of cases, an awkward, dodgy, even erroneous translation will get the job done.
This is undoubtedly true. However, I would propose that we don't redefine "professional translation" to mean a translation that is "just sufficiently below the erroneous threshold to get the job done", but instead maintain our definition of a professional translation as being one done to the quality of a skilled native speaker in the target language who has a virtually perfect understanding and feel for the source language.
Then, if we want to accept that in many cases, people don't need a professional translation, and that an unprofessional job is sufficient, then I think that is undeniably true. But I'm not about to change my logo to "cheap, shoddy job guaranteed".
| | | | Nicole Schnell
Spojené štáty
Local time: 10:26
angličtina -> nemčina
+ ...
Na pamiatku | By error? Or worse: an illusion? | Aug 18, 2011 |
Diego Canossa wrote:
However, my main concern was that these agencies simply do NOT accept translators working into their native language
The illusion that a translation done by a non-native speaker might come cheaper, that is.
It is quite the opposite. Or should be.
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