| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Off topic: This is not about pedantry... Thread poster: Tom in London
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Christine Andersen wrote:
If they had thought of Beaver Road, at least it would have been spelt correctly...
... and had a meaning the residents would probably rather avoid, given the choice.
| | | | | oops missing apostrophe | Jan 25, 2014 |
neilmac wrote: Me too, usually, but you never know when you're going to slip up... I missed one out the other day myself and only caught it when revising the translation before sending it off. To err is human... But in the article, what I find really disappointing is the "solution" the bright sparks at the local authority in question came up with ... just omit them from all street signs and... Bobs your uncle.
I think you mean 'Bob's your uncle' ?
| | | | Kirsten Bodart 
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:13
Dutch to English
+ ...
| I think I have to agree with Giles | Jan 26, 2014 |
in that apostrophes are taught to EFL students very early on (first year). They're not the most difficult thing to learn: you use them in verbs and otherwise in possessives and plural possessives ending in s after the s. That's five minutes. No exceptions, no special tweaks, unlike the spelling mess my native Dutch is in. To this day, I have to check the rules whenever I have to write a possessive, because they're so illogical.
I thought I heard apostrophes were taken off the curric... See more in that apostrophes are taught to EFL students very early on (first year). They're not the most difficult thing to learn: you use them in verbs and otherwise in possessives and plural possessives ending in s after the s. That's five minutes. No exceptions, no special tweaks, unlike the spelling mess my native Dutch is in. To this day, I have to check the rules whenever I have to write a possessive, because they're so illogical.
I thought I heard apostrophes were taken off the curriculum under Labour. Maybe Cameron or Gove has brought them back in the meantime, but they were definitely off the curriculum for some time. And you wonder why the 'mens toilets' in Manchester town hall are spelled that way. I can understand the problem of 'Earls' Court' or 'Earl's Court' station in London. What is it, was it the court of several earls or the court of one earl? You'd have to look at how it has always been spelled, but 'mens' does not exist! What do they propose it means? It's lack of attention to proper spelling in school and lack of pride when it comes to getting things right.
I don't think there was official spelling in Shakespeare's days yet, so he could get away with spelling things as he saw fit. We have moved on. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:13
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
I once saw a particularly annoying notice attached to the railings of a central London building, which read:
BICYCLE'S ATTACHED TO THESE RAILING'S WILL BE "REMOVED".
A friend of mine who was with me at the time wondered whether this would consist of pretending to remove the "bicycle's" whilst actually leaving them where they were.
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Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:13
French to English
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| Educational storms and teacups | Jan 26, 2014 |
I can't help thinking that if writing "King's Street" as "Kings Street" is mentally too confusing for the emergency services, I wonder how they're going to get on making crucial snap medical decisions in the case of an emergency...
But leaving that aside, I do wonder why the conservative educationalists get in such a flap about this:
1) Educationally, one important lesson about written conventions is that sometimes different conventions are used in different circumstanc... See more I can't help thinking that if writing "King's Street" as "Kings Street" is mentally too confusing for the emergency services, I wonder how they're going to get on making crucial snap medical decisions in the case of an emergency...
But leaving that aside, I do wonder why the conservative educationalists get in such a flap about this:
1) Educationally, one important lesson about written conventions is that sometimes different conventions are used in different circumstances-- another convention, for example, is that street signs are often written in capitals, whereas everyday writing generally isn't. If the educationalists are worried that having different conventions on signposts vs prose writing is too educationally challenging, then why aren't they campaigning for street signs not to be written in capitals?
2) It's all very well devoting energy to upholding a convention if it actually has much merit in the first place. The apostrophe, on the other hand, is pretty much the most pointless, inconsistent, poorly designed system you could possibly imagine. If you're going to devote energy to the apostrophe, let's devote energy to scrapping the damn thing and coming up with a more fit-for-purpose alternative (which could actually be nothing at all...). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 16:13
Italian to English
In memoriam | A matter of style | Jan 26, 2014 |
Kirsten Bodart wrote:
I don't think there was official spelling in Shakespeare's days yet, so he could get away with spelling things as he saw fit. We have moved on.
There still is no "official" spelling, whatever that means, which is why a market exists for comprehensive style guides and a need, on our part, to match usage to context.
Neil's comment about ditching the apostrophe echoes what the lexicographer Robert Burchfield said in his 1985 book The English Language about what he called "this moderately useful device".
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 16:13
French to English
| Dangerous question | Jan 26, 2014 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
12 years of compulsory education and still not being able to properly place an apostrophe.
Every time I log into Facebook or browse other social media and see the widespread misuse of the apostrophe I can't help but scratch my head and wonder "just what did you learn in those 12 years if not the basics of literacy in your own language?"
Well you shouldn't get me going on the shortcomings of education but
you spend your first years of life learning to walk and talk and run
then you spend the rest of your childhood learning to sit down and shut up...
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 16:13
French to English
| are the native's revolting here or what? | Jan 26, 2014 |
Neil Coffey wrote:
It's all very well devoting energy to upholding a convention if it actually has much merit in the first place. The apostrophe, on the other hand, is pretty much the most pointless, inconsistent, poorly designed system you could possibly imagine. If you're going to devote energy to the apostrophe, let's devote energy to scrapping the damn thing and coming up with a more fit-for-purpose alternative (which could actually be nothing at all...).
What? you want to simplify the language? but then the punters might not need to call on us language specialists to write stuff properly!!!
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PAS
Local time: 16:13
Polish to English
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| George Bernard Shaw | Jan 27, 2014 |
What were his arguments, then?
| | | | Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:13
French to English
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PAS wrote:
What were his arguments, then?
Essentially what you'd expect: they rarely distinguish words, are used inconsistently even according to prescriptive convention and aesthetically can be a distraction, especially when you're writing in a colloquial style.
If you think about it, the logic behind writing, say, "shan't" is not particularly impeccable. Depending on what arbitrary argument you want to invent, you could equally justify writing "sha'n't" or "shant" (who says the brain actually processes "shan't" as a contraction of "sha(ll) not" -- maybe it's essentially just a different word).
| | | | Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:13
French to English
+ ...
| Whatever the argument, it's essentially spurious anyway, though... | Jan 28, 2014 |
Texte Style wrote:
What? you want to simplify the language? but then the punters might not need to call on us language specialists to write stuff properly!!!
I should say that in all seriousness, I'm not personally proposing to wage a war in favour of or against the apostrophe. For most people, myself included, there are more urgent reasons for getting out of bed in the morning than a few apostrophes or lack thereof on street signs. And the entire English writing system essentially consists of a plethora of anachronistic incongruences in any case-- there's no particular reason per se to single out the apostrophe as the vital thread without which all schoolchildren will suddenly become illiterate.
On the other hand, if other educationalists *are* going to start wielding their whiteboard markers over this, then I suppose I will do my best to bring a bit of common sense to the debate.
[Edited at 2014-01-28 01:47 GMT]
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