| Pagine: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Commentary on rates by job poster(s) in their posts Iniziatore argomento: Henry Hinds
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Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 16:53
Da Inglese a Russo
| That is an illusion | May 20, 2006 |
Álvaro Blanch wrote: But let's not forget that ProZ.com is a worldwide service, so why shouldn't there be (10!) translators throughout low-income countries bidding for the job.
Belarus is by all means a low-income country.
Yves Champollion sold me Wordfast at the
discount rate.
A monthy ration of dialup Internet (slow and
unrealible) costs about 80 USD, while some
folks in Europe can enjoy ADSL or fiber optics
for far less. If I continue the list of comparisons
related to teleworking and lifestyle in general,
you will see that there are no low income countries
when it comes to translation business.
When I hear Europeans and Americans chatter
about what they do not fully understand I want to
recommend some of them to move to some Utopian
African Republic:
• Sattelite Internet - 1400 USD/month.
• Security guards - nX100 USD/month.
• A Seagate HDD - 400 USD + a 300 km drive with overtime pay to the security boys...
• Monthly protection payment to the mob/tribes/City Council - 666 USD/month.
• Spare collant pump for your Toyota - .....
I think you got the idea.
Delivering good quality for very low prices is an
illusion, take car service, painting, translation or
filmmaking, for peanuts you can get rubbish.
Stay well,
Aleksandr
[Edited at 2006-05-20 15:25]
| | | | texjax DDS PhD 
Local time: 09:53
Membro (2006)
Da Inglese a Italiano
+ ...
I would like to express my opinion about this topic, which already received many valuable contributions.
Need freelancers with VERY competitive charges, please.
The posting is clear. If you think that your rates are not very competitive, don't go any further.
You might think this could be a potential job and keep clicking.
0.015 USD/word, even clearer.
It's not good enough for me, bye!
This is a free market. The offer receive... See more I would like to express my opinion about this topic, which already received many valuable contributions.
Need freelancers with VERY competitive charges, please.
The posting is clear. If you think that your rates are not very competitive, don't go any further.
You might think this could be a potential job and keep clicking.
0.015 USD/word, even clearer.
It's not good enough for me, bye!
This is a free market. The offer received up until now, 71 answers...which means:
1)somebody is interested in the "practical, good" experience
2)somebody needs that money
3)both of them.
For somebody, somewhere, for some reason, that is an acceptable price.
I will never judge anybody for that.
The site cannot legally impose limits about prices...fine!
But...
African prices with European QUALITY.
That's THE point.
It implies that African translators do not deliver a quality product.
This is discriminatory and offensive.
It's offensive for Africans, it's offensive for translators, it's offensive. Period.
Is this statement crossing the line? I believe so.
The ad cannot be removed because there is no price limit..the ad cannot be removed for such and such reason...
Can it be removed if offensive?
tex
[Edited at 2006-05-20 18:20] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
Stati Uniti
Local time: 09:53
Da Spagnolo a Inglese
+ ...
| Average Prices | May 20, 2006 |
texjax wrote:
For somebody, somewhere, for some reason, that is an acceptable price.
I will never judge anybody for that.
You're right and I don't think most of us have a problem with people trying to earn a living (at rates based on their economic situation or geographic location). I think the major problem is that we don't want to feel that these people are being taken advantage of because they are new to the profession and don't know any better, etc.
Would there be anything wrong with calculating the average rate per word for each language pair (based on the information in profiles) and when a translator enters a quote in response to a job offer that is lower than that average, he or she is shown a polite message informing them that they are free to quote as they choose, but that their rate is below the average rate for translators (on this site) in that pair (without specifying the average rate, of course, because that might be seen as imposing limits)? Since this would be a statement of fact and not a subjective limit and in no way restrictive (translators are free to ignore the message), I fail to see how this would be illegal.
At least this way we would have some peace of mind in knowing that the people accepting these jobs are doing so consciously, because they need the money, etc. and not because they don't know the true value of their work.
[Edited at 2006-05-20 15:54]
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Texjax wrote:
"African prices with European QUALITY.
That’s THE point.
It implies that African translators do not deliver a quality product.
This is discriminatory and offensive.
It’s offensive for Africans, it’s offensive for translators, it’s offensive. Period.
Is this statement crossing the line? I believe so.
The ad cannot be removed because there is no price limit…the ad cannot be removed for such and such reason�... See more Texjax wrote:
"African prices with European QUALITY.
That’s THE point.
It implies that African translators do not deliver a quality product.
This is discriminatory and offensive.
It’s offensive for Africans, it’s offensive for translators, it’s offensive. Period.
Is this statement crossing the line? I believe so.
The ad cannot be removed because there is no price limit…the ad cannot be removed for such and such reason….
Can it be removed if offensive?"
I've seen postings and questions removed for much less in proz.com.
At least remove the sentence! ▲ Collapse
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texjax DDS PhD
Local time: 09:53
Membro (2006)
Da Inglese a Italiano
+ ...
| silence talks | May 20, 2006 |
Francesca Pesce wrote:
At least remove the sentence!
Brava Francesca, you nailed it.
Remove the sentence, hide it..
keeping it there is somewhat a reinforcement.
Silence talks very loud sometimes.
tex
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Germania
Local time: 15:53
Da Inglese a Tedesco
+ ...
| Company description removed | May 20, 2006 |
Hi all,
I hid the company description (note that the offending sentence was included in the description of the job poster's own business).
keeping it there is somewhat a reinforcement.
Silence talks very loud sometimes.
I wouldn't necessarily jump to conclusions here: please remember that moderators are not online on a 24/7 basis - we're volunteers running our own businesses. And sometimes we're even off the computer...
Best regards,
Ralf
| | | | texjax DDS PhD
Local time: 09:53
Membro (2006)
Da Inglese a Italiano
+ ...
| wise decision | May 20, 2006 |
Thank you Ralf!
tex
| | | | moken
Local time: 14:53
Da Inglese a Spagnolo
+ ...
| Trying to understand | May 20, 2006 |
Aleksandr Okunev wrote:
When I hear Europeans and Americans chatter
about what they do not fully understand I want to
recommend some of them to move to some Utopian
African Republic:
I hear you Aleksandr - certainly a good point, though it would take a good deal of research to assess exactly how much translation costs in each country.
I do regret having been the only person quoted when you mentioned of Euro-American chattering, since you hadn't aired this concern previously. I imagine this is not merely because we didn't share the same view. I continue to welcome your views; my opinions are by no means cast in stone. I for one wish to continue this debate in a constructive manner, so please take my posting as an attempt at adding a different angle to what had previously been discussed.
I'll readily admit what you say: I do not fully understand the issue, but I try not to over-simplify it either. I would like to think my view is not one-dimensional. I do believe I was the first in the thread to ask what we took to be "African rates". Here we undoubtedly share common ground: what might be considered "household" items sin some places are undoubtedly "luxury" goods elsewhere.
The possibility remains that when translation services are repeatedly offered and bid for at rates below $0.03 someone, somewhere might just be making a living out of it. Maybe not in Belarus, but I would hesitate to say that costs are equal in all low-income countries.
About being constructive, I think Tex has made one of the best points yet
Texjax wrote:
African prices with European QUALITY.
That’s THE point.
It implies that African translators do not deliver a quality product.
This is discriminatory and offensive.
It’s offensive for Africans, it’s offensive for translators, it’s offensive. Period.
As Francesca says, postings and questions have been removed for much less. I myself was once admonished in the past for a much more naive comment. Why should job posts not be subject to equally similar scrutiny.
Finally, I like the suggestion made by TampaTranslator:
TampaTranslator wrote:
Would there be anything wrong with calculating the average rate per word for each language pair (based on the information in profiles) and when a translator enters a quote in response to a job offer that is lower than that average, he or she is shown a polite message informing them that they are free to quote as they choose, but that their rate is below the average rate for translators (on this site) in that pair (without specifying the average rate, of course, because that might be seen as imposing limits)? Since this would be a statement of fact and not a subjective limit and in no way restrictive (translators are free to ignore the message), I fail to see how this would be illegal.
Apart from the complexity of such a measure (I guess ProZ.com would have the last word there) and issues such as the difference in rates from one place to another, I think this is a very interesting suggestion. Maybe the same could apply to job posters, allowing perhaps for the average to be a range and not a single number and avoiding such messages for offer which come close to but do not meet the average. Again, I suppose this would be subject to legal scrutiny, but like TampaTranslator, I fail to see this as imposing a limit.
I'd like to hear more opinions on the subject.
Regards to all,
Álvaro  ))
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moken
Local time: 14:53
Da Inglese a Spagnolo
+ ...
Thanks Ralf,
With Francesca & Tex on this issue.
))
| | | | | About ProZ not being entitled to impose limits | May 20, 2006 |
I have asked this numerous times and NEVER got a reply.
If ProZ is not allowed legally to impose limits, they are at least allowed to not allow job posters to put their quotes in their job postings. As service providers, translators are entitled and supposed to set their own rates, and it's up to the job poster to take them or leave them.
As a venue (and this little word has been stressed by ProZ for ages), isn't ProZ supposed to serve the interests of all parties? I m... See more I have asked this numerous times and NEVER got a reply.
If ProZ is not allowed legally to impose limits, they are at least allowed to not allow job posters to put their quotes in their job postings. As service providers, translators are entitled and supposed to set their own rates, and it's up to the job poster to take them or leave them.
As a venue (and this little word has been stressed by ProZ for ages), isn't ProZ supposed to serve the interests of all parties? I mean, maybe ProZ is not allowed imposing limits on rates in job postings, but they thereby allow for job posters to have the advantage of the situation.
Many translators - mainly in developing countries or unexperienced translators - think that these "sky-low" rates are the standard, and that surely there is nothing else available, so, let's just take the penny-a-word rate and shut up - it's better than nothing!
I demand to offer MY rate for the job poster to take or leave - and I am sure many of us feel the same way. I stopped replying long ago to all job postings where there were fixed rates offered, unless they were reasonable - and I am still making decent money. However, those who do answer those ridiculous job postings are bringing the whole market's rates down. In light of this, how can ProZ honestly pretend they are helping anyone - except the agencies?
Ladies and gentlemen, please do answer this posting if you feel there should not be any rates in job postings and that people replying to job postings should be free to enter their offer. I would like to know if there is a "market" for this idea.
[Edited at 2006-05-20 19:09] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Alicia Casal
Argentina
Local time: 10:53
Da Inglese a Spagnolo
+ ...
I think there s a huge dumping placing our market place in jeopardy.
Alicia
P.S. Is dumping legal? Ah sorry.....I forgot about the free market issue........
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Evert DELOOF-SYS wrote:
Please also read Jobs FAQ item 21:
But we believe that control of rates does (and should!) reside in the hands of service providers.
Just how can control of rates reside in the hands of service providers when it is the job posters who set the rates? Any comments on this from a moderator are more than welcome!
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Dees
Regno Unito
Local time: 14:53
Da Inglese a Francese
+ ...
| Thanks for bringing this up, Viktoria! | May 20, 2006 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
As service providers, translators are entitled and supposed to set their own rates, and it's up to the job poster to take them or leave them.
I definitely agree with you, Viktoria, thank you for bringing this up.
That is/should be one of our great privileges, right?
Enjoy being your own boss!
| | | | | Thanks Mitsuko | May 20, 2006 |
I forgot to add that it should not be the other way around - that job posters shouldn't be allowed to "offer" rates to translators. When you go to the dentist's, you don't "bid" on a filling. The dentist tells YOU how much it costs, and if you're not willing to pay that much, you are free to shop for another dentist.
I think it's high time for ProZ to ban pricing info out of job postings, especially since their own policies and rules say (see my previous post) that service providers... See more I forgot to add that it should not be the other way around - that job posters shouldn't be allowed to "offer" rates to translators. When you go to the dentist's, you don't "bid" on a filling. The dentist tells YOU how much it costs, and if you're not willing to pay that much, you are free to shop for another dentist.
I think it's high time for ProZ to ban pricing info out of job postings, especially since their own policies and rules say (see my previous post) that service providers should be the ones who set the rates.
Also, I pay for my platinum membership and get lots of ProZ mail and also see job postings on the site, the majority with ridiculous rates, disrespectful statements etc. It makes no sense to me to PAY for such insults. I don't think I would be able to afford to pay for a platinum membership if I accepted jobs at such insulting rates. In fact, if that was the case, I probably wouldn't have a CAT tool and an internet connection, either.
Finally, I invite all professional translators to reply to such job postings with their real rates, even if you all know that you will not get the contract - you don't want it anyways. Maybe if we started "spamming" those unfair job posters, they would eventually get the message... ▲ Collapse
| | | | moken
Local time: 14:53
Da Inglese a Spagnolo
+ ...
| ups and downs of bidding on ProZ.com | May 20, 2006 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
I forgot to add that it should not be the other way around - that job posters shouldn't be allowed to "offer" rates to translators. When you go to the dentist's, you don't "bid" on a filling. The dentist tells YOU how much it costs, and if you're not willing to pay that much, you are free to shop for another dentist.
I think it's high time for ProZ to ban pricing info out of job postings, especially since their own policies and rules say (see my previous post) that service providers should be the ones who set the rates.
Also, I pay for my platinum membership and get lots of ProZ mail and also see job postings on the site, the majority with ridiculous rates, disrespectful statements etc. It makes no sense to me to PAY for such insults. I don't think I would be able to afford to pay for a platinum membership if I accepted jobs at such insulting rates. In fact, if that was the case, I probably wouldn't have a CAT tool and an internet connection, either.
Hi Viktoria,
Very fair points all round - except for idea of 'intimidating' job posters. I think that might not be the right line of action.
However, to concentrate on the positive aspects, line by line what you have said makes a lot of sense.
Needless to say, while the decision lies with the ProZ.com site, paying members' voices are heard by site staff, I think we'll all agree to that even if our own individual requests are not always heeded (which would be impossible given the contrast in opinions).
Why not use the powerful "focus group" provided by the forums to help ProZ decide on this matter.
To kick this idea off, I would ask the following question:
Which could the positive or negative consequences be of Proz.com moving to rule out pricing in job offers?
A possible positive consequence would be, as you say, to enable translators to establish the market. I never bid for jobs anyhow and I know many more are in the same boat.
On the downside, it wouldn't surprise me if such a move opened up considerable market space for alternative sites to use job-bidding as a prominent feature, with the additional danger of such sites being less sensitive than ProZ.com to translator's opinions. As such, this could stimulate pricing competition even further, on exactly the opposite side of the market you'd like to have some control over.
It's a tricky issue. That's why, while I feel your idea is good, I also feel it might need to be given deep thought before any brash action is taken.
Happy thinking!
Álvaro ))
[Edited at 2006-05-20 20:07]
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