Glossary entry

Czech term or phrase:

Český les

English translation:

Český les highlands / hills

Added to glossary by Igor Liba
Apr 7, 2009 15:25
15 yrs ago
Czech term

Český les

Czech to English Science Geography
from text: Severovýchodní část šumavské soustavy tvoří Český les, úzký a dlouhý geomorfologický celek ležící při státní hranici s Německem. Na německém území se nazývá Oberpfalzer Wald.
Here's the thing: two different variations pop out when researching it...and each holds a bit of truth...but I don't want to spoil your fun :). I don't know which to use or if there's another phrase...Geography being a science, one answer should be the right one.
Change log

Apr 18, 2009 06:07: Igor Liba Created KOG entry

Discussion

Pavel Blann Apr 8, 2009:
BTW, "šumavská soustava / subprovincie" contains mountainous regions of South-West Bohemia, North-East Bavaria, and Nothern Austria.
Pavel Blann Apr 8, 2009:
Bohemian Forest (a literal translation of Český les) is incorrect because it means Šumava, which is a different region of http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Šumavská_subprovincie
Pavel Blann Apr 8, 2009:
Český les Highlands is also possible if you want to keep the Czech name, pls. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_(geography) "Highlands" can be any mountainous region above the 500m altitude.
Pavel Blann Apr 8, 2009:
Scott, it's relatively simple: click http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Palatinate_Forest and then "Česky" in the left panel. It's convincing enough, IMHO.
Scott Evan Andrews (asker) Apr 8, 2009:
I've detected slight interest... now can anybody tell me what it's supposed to be?...I've a tendency to pick one of the choices below, but I want to ask...is Český les poorly named in Czech from its first naming? What is it? Is it really a Forest? I don't think so - just ask Pavel. Highlands? No, too low! I feel like gollem. Are the Germans linguistically responsible for this debacle? I even talked with the director of the CHKO Český les today...somebody convince me!
Pavel Blann Apr 8, 2009:
to je pochopitelné. kontextem je totiž geomorfologie a ne zeměpis, který nás tu jen plete a zavádí jinam ;)
Jana Bedanova Apr 8, 2009:
Aha. No tak to vidite :-) ja uz jsem z te Sumavy a lesa uplnej jelen.
Pavel Blann Apr 8, 2009:
to jana: "severovýchodní" je správně -- je nutné si uvědomit, že autor hovoří o celé šumavské soustavě (včetně německých součástí), jejíž střed leží na území bavorska. z tohoto středu pak český les skutečně tvoří severovýchodní část šumavské soustavy.
Jana Bedanova Apr 8, 2009:
TO SCOTT: He, only now I noticed that your text says "Severovýchodní část" - that's a mistake anyway. It should be "Severozápadní část"
Jana Bedanova Apr 8, 2009:
Az na to,ze Cesky les je dle Nemcu Bohmischer Wald Ja s vami proste nemuzu souhlasit. Bohemian Forest je vseobecne zazity v anglictine pro Sumavu. To je cela pointa tehle diskuse. <br>V jednom s vami ale souhlasim, urcite by se to nemelo (a je to evidentne nebezpecne :-)) prekladat

Douska: Bohemian Forest je jeden geograficky celek, ktery se nesklada ze 2 pohori ale na ceske strane se nazyva Sumava (Bohmer Wald) a na nemecke strane se nazyva Zadni bavorsky les (Bayerische Wald).

Stejne tak Upper Palatine Mountains je jeden geograficky celek (odlisny od Bohemian Forest), ktery se nesklada ze dvou pohori. Je to minipohori (a ne les). Na ceske strane se nazyva Cesky les (Bohmischer Wald) a na nemecke strane se nazyva Hornofalcky les (Oberpfalzer Wald)
Maria Chmelarova Apr 8, 2009:
Jana diky, nic mi neuniklo. Vsetko sa to da najst ak si vypiseme vase navrhy alebo niekoho ineho. Vcera som si dala namahu, a som si to vsetko precitala, porovnala a ako zemepisarka v aprobacii stale neviem pochopit v com je problem. Hadam v tom ze v prevahe na webkach su nemecke vyrazy, prelozenen do anglictiny a pod. Ak svetovy atlas zostaveny by National Geographic Assoc. ma v Cechach Cesky les, Sumava a v Nemecku je to Bohmer Wald tak to treba respektovat a nie prekladat, hoci som dala suhlas to Misha Smid. Preco, lebo je to vseobecne zauzivane ze Cesky les je Bohemian forest (Forest). Co urobime ak niekto predlozi otazku ako prelozit Blansky les (napr.?)
Igor Liba Apr 8, 2009:
Mária, predsa ja nekomunikujem s Vami e-mailom tak nemozem Vam e-mailom ani inym sposobom posielat to iste. Odosielatelom spravy ktoru dostanete predsa nie som ja alebo vari ano.
Maria Chmelarova Apr 8, 2009:
Igor, hovorim o tom ze len od vas mi neustale a opakovane pride ta ista odpoved, ktoru napisete. Chyba v mojom pocitaci/ nastavenie? Asi nie.
Jana Bedanova Apr 8, 2009:
Otazka zni, jak se to rekne anglicky. Aby nedoslo ke zmateni ctenare, ktery vi, ze Bohemian Forest je Sumava. Prece neni mozne, abychom prekladali dve odlisne veci stejnym nazvem. At uz to vysledne prelozime jakkoliv (Cesky les highlands, ci cokoliv jineho)
Jana Bedanova Apr 8, 2009:
Marie Je mi lito, ze vam unikl muj prispevek - prosim viz dole - kde rikam, ze ten druhy link se musi cely zkopirovat do prohlizece, jelikoz Proz.com ho z nejakeho duvodu ucinil nefunkcnim.

Co se tyce Britannicy, to je zajimave, asi vam to hazi jiny text, tak ja ho sem pro jistotu zkopiruji (je to vynatek z hesla Bohemian Forest):

...is sparse. There are some mineral deposits and stone quarries. To the northwest [of Bohemian Forest], the much lower range of the Český les (Oberpfälzerwald Mountains) is separated from the main group (the Šumava and Hinterer Wald) by a depression that extends roughly between the towns of Cham, Furth im Wald, and...

Ze ktereho je jasne, ze Bohemian Forest NENI Cesky les, protoze Cesky les lezi to the northwest!

Dale, co se tyce atlasu s vami plne souhlasim. Presne z toho duvodu jsem zde uvedla ty dva linky - mapy v nich jsou v poradku.

Dale jsem ve svem uplne puvodnim prispveku uvedla, ze
Český les: Upper Palatinate Forest in English
Böhmischer Wald in German
Šumava = Bohemian Forest in English
Böhmerwald in German

Povsimnete si prosim nemeckych nazvu. Ano v nemcine se to rekne takrka stejne.
Igor Liba Apr 8, 2009:
noc = nic
Igor Liba Apr 8, 2009:
Mária, neviem o com hovorite, skuste si pozriet nastavenia, predsa ja vam noc neposielam mailom, na to ste uz snad mohla prist.
Maria Chmelarova Apr 8, 2009:
Igor, je na to extra dovod preco mi prisla vasa odpoved zopakovanan 7x.
Maria Chmelarova Apr 8, 2009:
Zemepis 5 rocnik, tam je viacej informacii. Pletie sa tu vsetko mozne, geomorfologia, sustavy len nie jednoducho nazov jedneho geografickeho celku, ktory sa nazyva Cesky les, ako napriklad Male, Biele Karpaty, ktore su castou karpatskej sustavy.
Maria Chmelarova Apr 8, 2009:
Scott, tu webku ktoru ste uviedli tu som odporucila davnejsie. Robite ekologiu alebo geografiu-zemepis.
Maria Chmelarova Apr 8, 2009:
Nazvy Uz ked, ziadne geograficke nazvy by sa nemali prekladat. Dokaz, nikto sa nepokusa prelozit Sumava alebo Stredoceska vysocina a pod. V pripade Cesky les je to hadam lahsie, lebo kazdy pozna ( k pozna) vyraz Bohemia. Co nie je len Cesko ale aj Cesko. Uz ked by sme mali byt presnejsi. Otvorte si atlasy, nespoliehajte sa na webky.
Maria Chmelarova Apr 8, 2009:
Jana Vase prve dve webky, jedna s vysrafovanym uzemim je Sumava a smerom na zapad od Sumavy je cesky les. Druha webka neposkytuje nic. Tretia "britanica" tam niet co discutovat lebo je tam nazov Cesky les-Behemian Wald.
Pavel Blann Apr 8, 2009:
this map also contains the czech part of "šumavská soustava" (aka "šumavská subprovincie" in this context)
Pavel Blann Apr 8, 2009:
the czech part of český les (aka českoleská oblast in this context) is visible on this map http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soubor:Geomorfologické_clenení_...
Jana Bedanova Apr 8, 2009:
Obarpfalzer Mountains I even found one link which translates it not as Upper Palatine Forest, but Oberpfalzer Mountains:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/423728/Oberpfalzer...
Jana Bedanova Apr 8, 2009:
Hehe, thats a good one Scott, even more confusing, try this (from the same website): http://www.oberpfaelzerwald.de/Freizeitkarte/Freizeitkarte-O...
Jana Bedanova Apr 8, 2009:
Marie This is exactly the reason why I posted those two links below. One of them does not unfortunately work, you have to copy and paste it to your browser. It's the maps of Sumava and Cesky les. Cesky les is indeed NW of Bohemian Forest or severozapadne if you want.
Upper Palatine Forest is geographically a mountain range that lies in Germany and it is indeed Hornofalcky les, except that the little part of it which overreaches to teh Czech Republic is called Cesky les by Czechs.

Which is why I suggested that the issue is whether Scott is talking about geography or let's say cultural geography... because if it's pure geography, ie., if he's speaking about the phenomena of some fauna and flaura in Cesky les - then I would use the Upper Palatine Forest - because there is one and only Upper Palatine Forest no matter how Czechs and Germans split it.
Scott Evan Andrews (asker) Apr 8, 2009:
I see you're all having fun with this one... so I thought I'd throw this into the mix: http://english.oberpfaelzerwald.de
Maria Chmelarova Apr 7, 2009:
so what I am reading wrong?
Pavel Blann Apr 7, 2009:
maria, please read scott's "from text:" carefully. thank you.
Maria Chmelarova Apr 7, 2009:
sv-severovychodne su Novohradske hory a nie Cesky les.
Maria Chmelarova Apr 7, 2009:
Pavel, vypustime geomorfologiu, to nema s tym nic spolocne co sa tu riesi. Ak hovorite o sumavskej sustave z hladiska geografie co nie je geomorfologia tak do sumavskej sustavy patri Sumava, Cesky les a Novohradske hory. V paregrave je sv cast sumavskej s
Pavel Blann Apr 7, 2009:
contrary to maria's statement, "šumavská soustava" (aka "šumavská subprovincie") does exist. it is a term of morphological geology, pls. see http://encyklopedie.seznam.cz/heslo/129617-geomorfologicke-c...
Maria Chmelarova Apr 7, 2009:
More to read " Oberphaltzer Wald " je Hornofalcky les in Germany and you will find more under "linguistic discussion" for Jana. Here is nothing to debate Cesky les je Cesky les and it is not Sumava or part of Sumava or what ever suggestion is here.
Maria Chmelarova Apr 7, 2009:
Scott here is first problem: "šumavska soustava" does not exist, it is Šumava mountains. 2. "severovychodne od š.s je Česky les". Česky les je SZ- North West of Šumava M. But SE-Nort East is Blansky les. Blansky les is PLA-protected landscape area.
Maria Chmelarova Apr 7, 2009:
Jana Nie tak rychlo. The Upper Palatinete Forest is a mountain range on the E. continent divided btw. Germany and Cz. R. The German side of the range is in the Upper Palatinate region Bavaria and borders the Bavarian Forest. The highest peaks of the range lie along the Czech side, which is known in Czech as Cesky les and is NW of Bohemian Forest. Tu je chyba, a namiesto Bohemian Forest ma byt Bavarian Forest. Lebo Cesky les je na SZ od Bavorskeho lesa. Upper Palatine (German Oberpfaltz) is one of the seven administrative regions of Bavaria. Bavaria is south of Cesky les a Sumava. Oberpfaltz-Upper Palatinate je Horne Falcko. Cize Upper Palatinate Forest nie je Cesky les ale Hornofalcky les. Nemecko je geograficky rozdelene na Horne a Dolne Falcko-Upper and Lower Palatinate. Lower Palatinate - Rhineland. Doslo aj k omylu vo wikipedii, kde Upper Palatinate Forest ktosi prelozil ako Cesky les a vy pisete o Sumave.
Jana Bedanova Apr 7, 2009:
I'm so surprised that noone actually reads those articles, but just posts links...<br><br>This might be of an interest:<br>Sumava:<br>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Sumava.pn... les:<br><url>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CHKO_Český_les_(CZE)_-_loc...
Jana Bedanova Apr 7, 2009:
perspective I think it depends who you are writing for. Geographically, it is undiscussably Upper Palatinate Forest because Cesky les is just a tiny (Czech) part of the mountain range called Oberpfalzer Wald and the translation for this range is the above.

Of course, a cultural point of view would be more complicated...and in that case Český les highlands is not such a bad idea...
Jana Bedanova Apr 7, 2009:
well, i dunno who gives the English names...for example until last winter I had no idea that "the Krkonoše mountains" as I used to call them are actually called "Giant mountains" in English for some rason - after I had to watch a documentary on it...
Scott Evan Andrews (asker) Apr 7, 2009:
see this is what I mean research clue: who actually named it?

Proposed translations

+3
10 mins
Selected

Český les highlands

*

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Note added at 11 mins (2009-04-07 15:36:28 GMT)
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http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Český_les
Peer comment(s):

disagree Maria Chmelarova : Cesky les je les a les nie je highlands, highlands je vysocina -Ceskomoravska, Stredoceska vysocina a pod.
2 hrs
dakujem, to je velmi „zaujimava“ poznámka - http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/71579/Bohemian-For... / highlands - vrchovina, vysočina / ani Cesko Saske Svajciarsko nie je dalsim kantonom Svajciarska a ani Kaspicke more nie je more ale jazero
agree Pavel Blann : also possible
4 hrs
ďakujem
agree Michal Zugec : Český les je pohorie (a celkom pekné) a nie les obecne
16 hrs
ďakujem
agree petr jaeger : jj, to je dobra varianta
16 hrs
ďakujem
agree Jana Bedanova
21 hrs
ďakujem
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks for the extra time, and for everyone's passionate engagement in this question. I ended up choosing this but Hills, because it is more a system of hills than highlands (like Chřiby)."
+1
3 mins

Upper Palatinate Forest

check also "Bohemian Forest" which is actually Šumava

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Note added at 8 mins (2009-04-07 15:33:53 GMT)
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Cesky les (Upper Palatinate Forest in English or Böhmischer Wald in German) is just a part of Šumava (Bohemian Forest in English or Böhmerwald in German)

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Note added at 10 mins (2009-04-07 15:35:54 GMT)
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mmm...right... maybe its not exactly geographically a part of it (thinking about it now they re very close to each other though), but it's definitely two different ranges as far as I can remember from my geography classes :-)

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Note added at 2 hrs (2009-04-07 18:20:50 GMT)
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Please read this carefully:
The highest peaks of the range lie along the Czech side, which is known in Czech as Český les (Böhmischer Wald in German) and is northwest of the Bohemian Forest.

Cesky les is northwest of the Bohemian Forest. It IS NOT the Bohemian Forest.


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Note added at 2 hrs (2009-04-07 18:22:50 GMT)
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If you click on the link in Wikipedia "Bohemian Forest", the VERY FIRST INFORMATION IS: "Not to be confused with Český les"
Peer comment(s):

disagree Maria Chmelarova : pls. find more info http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Palatine_Forest
2 hrs
EXACTLY!!! Cesky les is the highest peak of the Upper Palatinum range and lies northwest to the Bohemian Forest (which is an English name already used for Šumava!!!)
agree Pavel Blann : zřejmě je obtížné: 1. důkladně přečíst zadání, 2. řádně prohledat web, 3. pokorně přiznat chybu, když nebylo dodrženo pořadí bodů 1. a 2. :))
4 hrs
diky Pavle, ja uz myslela, ze ten Bohemian Forest tomu zustane nadobro prisity :-))
agree Igor Liba : po vasej rozprave musim suhlasit
1 day 21 hrs
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+1
3 mins

Bohemian Forest

The Bohemian Forest is a low mountain range in Central Europe. Geographically, the mountains extend from South Bohemia in the Czech Republic to Austria and Bavaria in Germany.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2009-04-07 20:49:38 GMT)
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The origin of the current name Bohemian Forest goes back to 400 BC. The Boii people spread across Europe between 400 BC and 8 BC. Boii is the Roman name of three ancient Celtic tribes, living in Transalpine Gaul (modern France), Cisalpine Gaul (northern Italy), and Bohemia, Moravia and western Slovakia. The European region of Bohemia owes its name to the Boii. The Romans called it Boiohaemum, Latin for "the home of the Boii". The mountain range has been traditionally identified with Γαβρήτα Ὕλη (Gabreta Forest), mentioned in Ptolemy's Geographia. In the 1st century AD the forest was inhabited by Gallo-Romans as well as by Germanic tribes in its northern part. Then again by the forefathers of the later Czech people, who entered the area in the 6th century AD, while from the 13th century AD until 1945–1946 most of the region was inhabited by Bohemian Germans, many of them woodcutters. The mountains were known just as the Forest during middle ages. The usage of its current Czech name Šumava has been attested in late 15th century Antonio Bonfini's work Rerum unganicarum decades. The origin of the name is not clear. Folk etymology connects it with Czech words šum, šumění, šumět denoting a noise of trees in the wind. The most accepted opinion among linguists derives Šumava from a theorized Proto-Slavic word *šuma = "dense forest", cf. Serbo-Croatian šuma.

Example sentence:

see above

Peer comment(s):

neutral Jana Bedanova : except that both Misha's and Igor's links actually point to the fact that Bohemian Forest is Sumava and Cesky les is a separate range..
18 mins
agree Blanka Salkova
31 mins
agree Zuzana Holcova
1 hr
disagree Pavel Blann : sorry but "bohemian forest" is „šumava“
4 hrs
Something went wrong...
1 day 16 hrs

Český les

no translation.
After very long exchange of information, missinformation here is why.
Český les in Czech R. is a mountain as Sumava and Novohradske hory. All three of them are in Czech R. and they are part of Sumavska sustava (subprovincia), they belong to Ceska vysocina (provicia).
Besides mountains the highlands as (Podceskohorska pahorkatina, Vserubska pahorkatina, Sumavske podhorie, Novohradske pohorie ) are part of Sumavska sustava (subprovincia).
Český les is a mountain range in lenght of 80 km from NW between Chebska panva and Všerubska vrchovina SE.
Yes, I made a mistake, when I wrote "sumavska sustava" does not exist, because for me it was perfectly clear what was your question. We are talking about geographical names of ... and not geological or geomorphological divisions.

Your question "who is responsible for linguistic dabacle", Germans, Czechs or who knows, is O.K. We will never know. But to do translation from German l. of Czech names to English, that is wrong.
What we will do next time, when somebody will ask us how to translate "Všerubska vrchvina, Brdy, Javorniky and ect. which they do not have English version in wikipedia/Google or ... only German.
My input is for no points.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days1 hr (2009-04-10 17:22:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Scott, you like it or not, I am still here and I will not quit so easy. So, please find more info:
www.zemepis.net/zeme-nemecko
where " vychodni hranci s Českou R. tvori Oberpfäzer Wald - Český les na který navazuje Bohmer Wald - Šumava..." that is geography about Germany but in czech lng.

Or if you wish
www.tisicovky.cz with wonderfull and accurate maps and informations.
If you wish to make any translation, because I am suggesting not to do that, you shoud do as Oberpfälzer Wald - Český les and if you need to transalte Šumava that is Bohmer Wald. The rest of information in wikipedia or some other material is just wrong. Someone start doing a mistake and the rest of people just multiply the wrong information over and over again, and this is why such a "guláš " (gulash) appeared here in our debate.

Forget the text from German point of view, you asked us about Český les originating in Czech text and not in German or English or some other language. Not how Germans are dividing and subdividing their mountains, highlands, lower lands or...but how Czechs call their own geographic units and how they would (if they have to ) translate them.
Please, do not make mistake. I do not like to write this, but now I will. I am a geographer with final thesis in geography (orography), can I make a mistake, sure but I solved the problem.
Thank you for reading this and good luck. M.
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Reference comments

5 hrs
Reference:

český les vs. šumava (bohemian forest)

as can be seen on the map below, šumava (bohemian forest) is also a national park, whereas český les is also a PLA (protected landscape area)--two narrow regions to the north-west of šumava

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Note added at 8 hrs (2009-04-07 23:27:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

both regions of „český les“ belong to west bohemia, whereas „šumava“ belongs to south bohemia, pls. see http://www.ecologica.cz/index.php?option=com_content&view=ca...

"šumavská soustava" is a superset of relevant D/CZ regions, pls. see http://encyklopedie.seznam.cz/heslo/504597-sumavska-subprovi...
Peer comments on this reference comment:

disagree Maria Chmelarova : "below (šumava)-bohemian forest?)" is Germany-Bavorsko. NE the small area of Sumava m. foothils is Blansky les, which is NE of Sumava m.
2 hrs
„šumavská soustava“ includes „šumava“, „český les“ and other relevant regions, including the german ones. „severovýchodní“ is referenced from the center of „šumavská soustava“, not „šumava“
agree Igor Liba
9 hrs
vďaka!
agree petr jaeger : anebo take Böhmischer wald (Böhmerwald), ze? :) Zikmund, lyska rysava, nam to natrel, ale nemci tam stejne bydleli uz od Karla, tak co
12 hrs
díky. nicméně tímto odkazem poukazuji na odlišnost termínů "šumava/böhmerwald/bohemian forest" a "český les/böhmischer wald" [czech side] / "hornofalcký les/oberpfälzer wald" [german side]
agree Jana Bedanova
16 hrs
díky!
Something went wrong...
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