Jun 28, 2022 04:42
1 yr ago
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French term
Que celui aime peu, qui aime la mesure
French to English
Art/Literary
Poetry & Literature
Literature
I'm working on an English book where I encounter the French quote "Que celui aime peu, qui aime la mesure" by La Boëtie. This quote is provided right after the chapter's name "Architecture and Passion", not in a specific passage, so I have no better clues to guess its meaning. The machine translation from Google seems obscure to me. Can anyone please help explain the general meaning of the quote? Thank you in advance.
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+3
7 hrs
French term (edited):
Que celui aime peu, qui aime à la mesure
Selected
He who loves by rules hardly loves at all.
Not only has the line been mangled, as Phil pointed out, but in addition it has to be understood as line 2 in a couplet at the end of a sonnet:
"Toi qui oys mes soupirs, ne me soys rigoureux
Si mes larmes à part toutes miennes je verse,
Si mon amour ne suit en sa douleur diverse
Du Florentin transi les regrets langoureux,
Ni de Catulle aussi, le folatre amoureux,
Qui le cœur de sa dame en chatouillant lui perce,
Ni le savant amour du demi-Grec Properce,
Ils n’aiment pas pour moi, je n’aime pas pour eux,
Qui pourra sur autrui ses douleurs limiter,
Celui pourra d’autrui les plaintes imiter :
Chacun sent son tourment et sait ce qu’il endure
Chacun parla d’amour ainsi qu’il l’entendit.
Je dis ce que mon cœur, ce que mon mal me dit.
Que celui aime peu, qui aime à la mesure."
This throws a more specific light on what the second line is getting at, although the link between the 2 lines is not straightforward.
However, if you read through the sonnet a few times the gist becomes clear: he's comparing his feelings to those expressed by various writers. Although Petrarch wasn't in fact a resident of Florence, I think Florentin transi probably refers to him rather than Dante, partly because Petrarch basically invented the idea of obsessive unfulfilled love, but also because Montaigne and La Boëtie had a "thing" about Petrarch: check this out: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6Z6npg_ks6UC&pg=PA122&lp...
I think, on reading this, I come to the conclusion that, more than anything, à la mesure refers to an idea of "convention", rejecting it in favour of individualism regarding sentiment, an appropriately humanist attitude.
As the main body of the poem suggests, particularly by the line in the past historic immediately preceding the couplet, these poets of old loved above all in their own way.
My first thought was "He who loves by the book hardly loves at all", but I think it is more general than that: an appeal to unconstrained feelings.
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Note added at 8 hrs (2022-06-28 12:55:36 GMT)
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A note on the metre: these old French poems do in fact scan perfectly, according to rigid rules, right up until the 20th century, including for example every poem Baudelaire ever wrote. But you have to be aware that the e muet is **voiced**, according to the rules: in particular it is **not** pronounced when elided due to a following vowel.
The final line therefore scans thus:
Que celui aim-euh peu (stressed, caesura), qui aim-a la mesure
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Note added at 9 hrs (2022-06-28 13:46:58 GMT)
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It might be helpful to read the two "mon"s in the penultimate line as being in italic: "I talk about **my** feelings", with reference to no-one else's...
"Toi qui oys mes soupirs, ne me soys rigoureux
Si mes larmes à part toutes miennes je verse,
Si mon amour ne suit en sa douleur diverse
Du Florentin transi les regrets langoureux,
Ni de Catulle aussi, le folatre amoureux,
Qui le cœur de sa dame en chatouillant lui perce,
Ni le savant amour du demi-Grec Properce,
Ils n’aiment pas pour moi, je n’aime pas pour eux,
Qui pourra sur autrui ses douleurs limiter,
Celui pourra d’autrui les plaintes imiter :
Chacun sent son tourment et sait ce qu’il endure
Chacun parla d’amour ainsi qu’il l’entendit.
Je dis ce que mon cœur, ce que mon mal me dit.
Que celui aime peu, qui aime à la mesure."
This throws a more specific light on what the second line is getting at, although the link between the 2 lines is not straightforward.
However, if you read through the sonnet a few times the gist becomes clear: he's comparing his feelings to those expressed by various writers. Although Petrarch wasn't in fact a resident of Florence, I think Florentin transi probably refers to him rather than Dante, partly because Petrarch basically invented the idea of obsessive unfulfilled love, but also because Montaigne and La Boëtie had a "thing" about Petrarch: check this out: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6Z6npg_ks6UC&pg=PA122&lp...
I think, on reading this, I come to the conclusion that, more than anything, à la mesure refers to an idea of "convention", rejecting it in favour of individualism regarding sentiment, an appropriately humanist attitude.
As the main body of the poem suggests, particularly by the line in the past historic immediately preceding the couplet, these poets of old loved above all in their own way.
My first thought was "He who loves by the book hardly loves at all", but I think it is more general than that: an appeal to unconstrained feelings.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2022-06-28 12:55:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
A note on the metre: these old French poems do in fact scan perfectly, according to rigid rules, right up until the 20th century, including for example every poem Baudelaire ever wrote. But you have to be aware that the e muet is **voiced**, according to the rules: in particular it is **not** pronounced when elided due to a following vowel.
The final line therefore scans thus:
Que celui aim-euh peu (stressed, caesura), qui aim-a la mesure
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2022-06-28 13:46:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
It might be helpful to read the two "mon"s in the penultimate line as being in italic: "I talk about **my** feelings", with reference to no-one else's...
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Anastasia Kalantzi
6 hrs
|
Thanks
|
|
agree |
Wolf Draeger
: Agree with your interpretation, if not your suggestion. I think your idea of without moderation is more accurate. Good research, btw.
1 day 1 hr
|
Thanks
|
|
agree |
Carol Gullidge
: Definitely!
2 days 2 hrs
|
Thanks
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+4
2 hrs
who measures their love, doesn't love very much
I think Phil and Helen have hit the nail on the head.
The difficulty here is that you have to recognize the inversion of the sentence: in plainer language, it might have been 'qui aime à la mesure, aime peu'
Obviously I've introduced a register shift with my 'doesn't love very much', just to give you the idea; the problem is that 'peu' in FR often translates with the notion of 'not much' in EN — is is perhaps less common to use 'little' in EN, except in such expressions as "little and often" etc.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2022-06-28 07:15:36 GMT)
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I almost wonder if that initial 'que' isn't exclamatory: "How little he loves, he who..."
The difficulty here is that you have to recognize the inversion of the sentence: in plainer language, it might have been 'qui aime à la mesure, aime peu'
Obviously I've introduced a register shift with my 'doesn't love very much', just to give you the idea; the problem is that 'peu' in FR often translates with the notion of 'not much' in EN — is is perhaps less common to use 'little' in EN, except in such expressions as "little and often" etc.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2022-06-28 07:15:36 GMT)
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I almost wonder if that initial 'que' isn't exclamatory: "How little he loves, he who..."
Note from asker:
Thank you very much for your explanation. Everything is clear to me now. |
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: yes, though I prefer Helene's rendering esp. "very deeply". OR Whoever measures out [...] deeply" ...
25 mins
|
Thanks, Yvonne! Yes, Helene's version is more poetic as a finished translation! I was just trying to help Asker follow the logic behind it.
|
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agree |
Stephanie Benoist
6 hrs
|
Merci, Stephanie !
|
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agree |
Andrew Bramhall
: Possibly also " whosoever measures..." , for reasons of consonance;
7 hrs
|
Thanks, Andrew!
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neutral |
Mpoma
: "mesure son amour" is a long way from "aime la mesure". See discussion and my answer: this is almost certainly a misreading by Zweig, author of the original German work.
11 hrs
|
Good research!
|
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agree |
Anastasia Kalantzi
12 hrs
|
Efharisto, Anastasia!
|
+6
3 hrs
One who measures out their love cannot love very deeply
I think this might do it, and in an appropriate register.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Tony M
1 min
|
agree |
writeaway
1 hr
|
agree |
Barbara Cochran, MFA
: At least when it comes to love for others. The comment, in French, sounds like a description of a true narcissist.
3 hrs
|
agree |
Sheri P
4 hrs
|
disagree |
Mpoma
: "mesure son amour" is a long way from "aime la mesure". See discussion and my answer: this is almost certainly a misreading by Zweig, author of the original German work.
10 hrs
|
agree |
Anastasia Kalantzi
11 hrs
|
agree |
Yvonne Gallagher
5 days
|
agree |
Mich Arsenault
: I like the cadence of this version
198 days
|
Thanks!
|
+1
6 hrs
How little loves he who measures out his love.
At the time La Boëtie was writing, would it not have been more natural to use 'he' rather than 'one' ?
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Note added at 6 hrs (2022-06-28 10:48:48 GMT)
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Note added at 6 hrs (2022-06-28 10:53:22 GMT)
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See also this translation from (at least, published in) 1904.
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Note added at 6 hrs (2022-06-28 10:48:48 GMT)
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Note added at 6 hrs (2022-06-28 10:53:22 GMT)
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See also this translation from (at least, published in) 1904.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Mpoma
: "mesure son amour" is a long way from "aime la mesure". See discussion and my answer: this is almost certainly a misreading by Zweig, author of the original German work. // see discussion: no, it's about doing things "without **moderation**"
7 hrs
|
In both French texts above it's 'ayme ** à ** la mesure'. It's all about passion, doing things uncontrollably, without bounds, without measure.
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agree |
Andrew Bramhall
3 days 10 hrs
|
Reference comments
1 hr
Reference:
that the one who loves any less, loves the measure
"I'll never love you any less." - Eu nunca vou te amar pouco. - https://context.reverso.net/traducao/portugues-ingles/amar p...
I think this is subjective, it’s the author’s idea because generally “ the measure of love is to have no measure”, then, for him, the measure of love is to love any less.
For him “the one who loves any less, loves the measure”
I think this is subjective, it’s the author’s idea because generally “ the measure of love is to have no measure”, then, for him, the measure of love is to love any less.
For him “the one who loves any less, loves the measure”
Peer comments on this reference comment:
disagree |
Tony M
: Your interpretation is the wrong way round, you seem to have misread the syntax here, which is reversed, as often in poetry.
34 mins
|
If you pay a
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disagree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: misinterpreted and really not idiomatic English either
1 hr
|
I you pay attention and deep the sense you may conclude the same meaning of ‘who measures their love, doesn't love very much ’
|
|
disagree |
Andrew Bramhall
: Agree with TM and YG;
4 hrs
|
disagree |
writeaway
: Nonsensical
4 hrs
|
any less: https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/any-less.1850931/
|
Discussion
I pointed out that the French simply contains no notion of "measuring love", either in the original La Boëtie/Boétie line or in the mangled version which Zweig uses, misreading, misquoting and misunderstanding the French line.
For the sake of understanding of your readers it would be best to use my suggested translation in my previous post, which is a faithful translation of the French as written.
But if I was going to put a footnote with any Vietnamese translation, I would feel obliged to add "... [Lưu ý: Zweig dường như đã trích dẫn sai và hiểu sai lời thoại của La Boëtie.]".
If my editors then objected to this, because it perhaps suggests Zweig was a more fallible human being than they would like, I would reply that it is valuable because it shows the psychological reality: Zweig, from the evidence of the German text I glanced at, had some pretty strong ideas about things (e.g. Dostoievski) and these may have clouded his outlook to the extent that he read the quote he *wanted* to read, not what was there!
But that ain't the main problem: la mesure in the misquoted line is clearly an abstract noun or quality, making reference to the character of the criticised person concerned. Whereas you (and the other answers) are choosing consciously to shoe-horn this word into applying only to the style of loving, for which there is simply no textual justification!
And in fact the fact of its being mangled adds to the gobbledygookedness of the entire line: La Boëtie's line clearly talks of a manner of loving, whereas the mangled line talks about loving something, namely "moderation".
It is pure interpolation to choose, as you and all the other answers do, to *restrict* this "tendency to measure" of the criticised individual to their style of loving: insofar as the gallimawfrey into which Zweig has transmogrified this line makes any sense at all, we are only authorised to assume the person concerned is excessively level-headed in every way.
To 'measure out' in this sense is of course to dispense something in measured quantities.
The meaning is something along the lines of restrained love is hardly any love at all, or to truly love someone or something is to give it/them one's all, to hold nothing back.
But it is really quite far removed from La Boëtie's meaning. It wouldn't be the first example where a misreading of a foreign text has spawned its own misguided but sometimes inadvertently creative meanings which had nothing to do with the original writer's intentions.
Yes, definitely leave in the French! Let your readers figure it out for themselves!
On the balance of probabilities, Zweig will have had a chance to proof-read this before it was printed, so the fault must, IMHO, be attributed to him. I don't think he deliberately skewed it, so I think the thing should be translated, if at all, taking account of the whole sonnet.
But... given that the English version didn't bother translating it, maybe you should leave it in French (misquoted!) in your Vietnamese version. That's probably what I'd do, for an easy life.
You haven't said yet whether the book itself misquotes. The poem says aime à la mesure. If the book misquotes this potentially could be deliberate, in order to skew the meaning deliberately, although this seems improbable, particularly since your book is in English.
If not, the quotation is meant with reference to the sonnet and any valid answer must take this into account, not just translate it in isolation.
Hoang, if you reverse the two clauses then yes, you change the meaning from
IF he (who) measures his love --> THEN he cannot/ must not/does not love very deeply
to
IF He (who) cannot love deeply --> THEN (he) measures out his love
Do you see the difference? In both cases, the first clause is the cause & the 2nd is the effect.
So something like “he who measures out his love, cannot love very deeply”
So something about how passion and reason (measure) are mutually exclusive. I can kind of see how that might be relevant in your context — does it tie in with what follows?