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We need a whole new paradigm
Thread poster: Daniel Frisano
MollyRose
MollyRose  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:43
English to Spanish
+ ...
On the Offtopic: Take it or leave it Dec 28, 2017

Nobody can force a good or bad day on anyone. So what is the big deal if I were to wish you a blessed, good, wonderful, whatever day? Isn´t that preferable to being wished an awful day? You are the one who decides for yourself what you are going to do and how you are going to respond to whatever comes your way. If you don't want to be happy, that is your choice, and nobody's words will change that if you don't allow it. On the other hand, you can choose to allow someone else's words to che... See more
Nobody can force a good or bad day on anyone. So what is the big deal if I were to wish you a blessed, good, wonderful, whatever day? Isn´t that preferable to being wished an awful day? You are the one who decides for yourself what you are going to do and how you are going to respond to whatever comes your way. If you don't want to be happy, that is your choice, and nobody's words will change that if you don't allow it. On the other hand, you can choose to allow someone else's words to cheer you up or encourage you.

Isn´t it better if someone wants the best for you, even if you want to stay in the mulligrubs? And if you desire the best for others, don't you feel better than when you're bitter and angry?

(I'm not addressing anyone in particular here. This is the generic "you." "You" can take it to heart or not, as "you" choose.)

People say what they say, and we don't always know if they mean what it "sounds" like. We are the ones who ultimately decide whether or not to accept what they say, how to interpret it, and how to respond to it. We can even give ourselves a good "talking to," but that doesn´t work either if we don't continue to guard our thoughts and tell ourselves to act the way we have chosen rather than fall back on habits that we had formed.

Each person is responsible for his own words and actions, not those of others. One can't please all the people all the time, but one can do what he believes in his heart is right.
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Arabic & More
Arabic & More  Identity Verified
Jordan
Arabic to English
+ ...
Not an order Dec 29, 2017

I think the misunderstanding here (apparent in people's comments about the issue) is that Americans are "instructing" you to have a nice day. That is not what is meant by "have" in this case. They are merely "wishing" you a nice day. "Have a nice day" = "I hope the remainder of your day is wonderful."

 
Jean Dimitriadis
Jean Dimitriadis  Identity Verified
English to French
+ ...
On-topic Dec 29, 2017

On off-topicness: At least Godwin’s law hasn’t been confirmed in this forum topic yet: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1”. The discussion illustrates, however, how some items or their formulation can be culture-bound or personal. Collaborating with people from different places and cultures often calls for watering down any excessive sensitivity in that regard.

For example, concerning point 7: Enough wit
... See more
On off-topicness: At least Godwin’s law hasn’t been confirmed in this forum topic yet: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1”. The discussion illustrates, however, how some items or their formulation can be culture-bound or personal. Collaborating with people from different places and cultures often calls for watering down any excessive sensitivity in that regard.

For example, concerning point 7: Enough with first-name basis right from the start. It’s Mr. (or Ms., or Mrs.), if you don’t mind.

It’s great to know Japanese honorifics are gender neutral. Many cultures and languages have grown gender-biased traits. Considering gender and gender roles as a social construct, I would not subscribe to a binary approach (man/woman, Mr./Mrs.). Inclusive and gender-neutral language has still a long way to go.

I will combine this point with the remarks made on signing off wishes or expressions: personal or cultural taste aside, politeness is not necessarily a sign of respect. Coming from a French culture, I think on the contrary that one can be very rude and disrespectful while still being polite.

Taking the above into account, I would personally rephrase and generalize point 7 as follows:

- Too much familiarity right from the start tends to hurt building a professional relation. At any point in this relation, I want to feel respected [which does not just mean addressed politely] and treated on an equal footing.



Now, to reply on the general topic. I would not call this a new paradigm, but highly agree it’s time to re-focus and seek a different attitude.

The points raised attempt to address a growing trend where some translation agencies especially (which are clients to us, but generally act as middlemen, lets not forget this dual role) look to dictate their rules (CAT tools, discount grids, cloud solutions, NDA and contracts, rates, MTPE, etc.). Likewise, technology is not neutral, and it is clear that some use its advances to further their own agenda (and force it upon others).

There are many ways (which mostly complement each other) to resist this trend:

- Join professional associations, which tend to champion translators’ interests.
- Uphold high professional and quality standards. This sends the right message and reinforces the translator’s position like nothing else can.
- Shift from a “freelancer” point of view to that of “independent service providers” as someone put it. I would not focus on the terms, but on the attitude shift itself. This would mean defining our own set of rules and red lines (TOBs, rates, etc.), entering negotiations as equal partners, defending interoperability and the freedom to use any tool, so far as the end product is there. Daniel’s points 1 through to 5 seem like a very good start in that regard. In effect, I think this approach directly challenges the modus operandi of many translation agencies out there.
- Such individual attitudes need to be shared publicly/collectively (as in this post), to help produce a tangible “resistance” stream, that will benefit most translators in the long run.

Finally, a note on state regulation and the generalization of a compulsory accreditation/certification system, as it seems to be the case in Australia: I personally abhor the creation of artificial scarcity and barriers to entry. “Certification constitutes a form of market manipulation and is plausible only to a schooled mind”, as Ivan Illich puts it. Anyone who has read his book “Deschooling society” might agree with that.

[Edited at 2017-12-29 07:12 GMT]
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Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:43
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Sometimes an irritant, but offensive? Dec 29, 2017

Sarah Lewis-Morgan wrote:
It seems quite inoffensive and on a par with being wished a Merry Christmas or a good evening, while the American version does not. I wonder why...

To offer a counterpoint, having worked alongside Americans for many years and travelled extensively in the US, I don't find it offensive. Obviously, this is a purely personal view, and I cannot speak for others.

Yes, I sometimes find it annoying when it is said only for commercial reasons (by service staff for example), especially in places like New York where there is such a general paucity of pleasantness that you suspect it to be false 95% of the time. But when you go to places in the midwest - I remember one particular visit to Des Moines - you get the feeling that most people actually mean it.

The wider issue is that "have a nice day" and "you're welcome" were not common in the UK when I was younger, and they have gradually seeped in and are in the process of becoming common in some areas. How should we respond to a process that some Brits will no doubt regard as a form of cross-contamination?

That is a matter for discussion, but I see no reason to resort to profanities of the kind that one of the members used earlier, before their post was hidden. I use that "resort to" advisedly, in the sense of somebody not being able to carry the argument except through behavior that is unnecessarily unpleasant and aggressive. Somebody says "have a nice day" and we respond with the F word? Really? Is that how far things have deteriorated on ProZ?

This is supposed to be a professional forum with an international membership. It is also open to public view and can be read by almost anybody, including clients, friends and family. We all have our moments, but let's try to stamp out needlessly disagreeable behavior - such as groundless use of aggression or swearing - by reporting it to the moderators when it occurs.

Regards,
Dan


 
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Mervyn Henderson (X)
Mervyn Henderson (X)  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
Just somebody ... Dec 29, 2017

[quote]Dan Lucas wrote:



That is a matter for discussion, but I see no reason to resort to profanities of the kind that one of the members used earlier, before their post was hidden. I use that "resort to" advisedly, in the sense of somebody not being able to carry the argument except through behavior that is unnecessarily unpleasant and aggressive. Somebody says "have a nice day" and we respond with the F word? Really? Is that how far things have deteriorated on ProZ?



... having a bad day, Dan. As opposed to a good one.


 
Daniel Frisano
Daniel Frisano  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 09:43
Member (2008)
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
? Dec 29, 2017

Geez, this is the last time I start a topic. Now I have to sort through all these rants to find something relevant.

Anyway, have a great weekend.

D.


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 05:43
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
The issue is in our specialty: communicating across cultures Dec 29, 2017

This long discussion on "have a nice day" serves to highlight our role in society as translators: converting a message - thoughts expressed in writing - from one culture to another, which INCLUDES changing the language used. If it merely involved changing the language, Google Translate could do our job.

If we translate "have a nice day" into PT, it's "tenha um bom dia", which is 100% correct. However this phrase is used in Brazil mostly to express "we are done here, just in case you
... See more
This long discussion on "have a nice day" serves to highlight our role in society as translators: converting a message - thoughts expressed in writing - from one culture to another, which INCLUDES changing the language used. If it merely involved changing the language, Google Translate could do our job.

If we translate "have a nice day" into PT, it's "tenha um bom dia", which is 100% correct. However this phrase is used in Brazil mostly to express "we are done here, just in case you haven't noticed". The usual transaction finish stub here is "Até logo. Volte sempre.", which literally means "Until soon. Come back always."

As translators, we must be familiar with what is considered "adequate" in both countries that use our source and target languages. My pair is EN-PT. While I'm fully familiar with corporate USA and Canada, been kinda part of it for years, in spite of being in an outpost (aka subsidiary) of it in Brazil, I wouldn't guarantee my proper behavior in a British environment.

To illustrate, once I was approached by a translation agency owner/PM from the UK. After having exchanged a few e-mails I remarked that she was unusually more pleasant to deal with than all English PMs I had been in contact with (which I was probably comparing with the American ones). She replied, "My English husband thinks that, too, 'cause I am Brazilian, just like you."

And then, to show the opposite case, once I had to contact a Brazilian sworn translator licensed for Chinese (I am one too, however licensed for English). According to the directory, she was located within walking distance from me. Considering the legal requirements, she must be a Brazilian citizen like me, to be a sworn translator. So I called her. I think it was her father who answered the phone, I'm not good in understanding Chinglish, unless that was his personal version of Portuguese. Then she came to the phone, we did a job together (the sworn translation of a document in English AND Chinese), and I recall we had a couple of misunderstandings arising from what could be labeled as "culture clash".

The Internet has rendered global people ubiquitous. For instance, I'm dealing with a translation agency established in New York. After some exchanges I realize that "my" PM is Yugoslavian, she has a peculiar accent on Skype. And no, she is neither here or there, she lives in Belgium. How should I treat her?

I adopted the American corporate standard as universal. Everybody there is addressed as "you"; there is no "your highness", "your lordship", nothing of the kind. If we are on different sides of the fence, it's "Mr. Smith"; however if we are on the same side of the fence, it will be simply "John". This tends to foster teamwork.

Once I was organizing an international conference in the company I was working for. I was a manager on the third tier of the Brazilian operation. The worldwide corporation #2 man would be arriving at 3 AM. Like most executives have a company car and driver, this guy had a 10-seat long-range jet plane with crew at his disposal. I felt it was part of my mission to fetch him at the airport. Got there, accommodated the crew in a cab to their hotel, and we got into my rented car. He sat in front with me, and set the tone, "Please call me Ed. At the end of the day, we are working together to reach the very same ultimate goals." We became friendly (not friends!), and he made it a point to drop at my office just to say "hello" every time he came to Brazil.

It's a matter of sheer politeness, and focus on the ultimate goal, not protocol.

Jean Dimitriadis wrote:
I would personally rephrase and generalize point 7 as follows:

- Too much familiarity right from the start tends to hurt building a professional relation. At any point in this relation, I want to feel respected [which does not just mean addressed politely] and treated on an equal footing.


The whole point of the OLD paradigm we are fighting here is that translation agencies should NOT have the upper hand in any way. In this old paradigm, many of them take the attitude of saying, "After having carefully weighed a large number of alternatives we have, we reluctantly decided to assign this precious translation job to you, since you dared to sign our leonine NDA. You MUST use (CAT tool) all the time, deliver it flawlessly done by (date and time hh:mm:ss at (time zone)), and we'll pay you (USD 0.02~0.04) per word, discounts being applied as per our fuzzy matches table, 60 days after EOM, via PayPal. Any late delivery or quality issues found - at our sole discretion, and no explanations being given - in your work shall cause us to deduct at least 50% of your payment. You shall be eternally grateful to us for having granted you the rare and coveted privilege of working for us."

I don't consider it familiarity. I simply consider the translation agencies/PMs I work with (and not for) my business partners. WE have a job their client needs done, and WE'll do our best to get that client well served, so that they'll come back, and make OUR business partnership sustainable over the long haul.

IMHO this is the goal of our new paradigm. As long as we get along, and get it done, formalities and protocol will become an irrelevant time-waster.
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Nikolaki
Nikolaki  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 09:43
French to English
Mopping up Dec 29, 2017

@Robert

[quote]Robert Forstag wrote:

Mervyn Henderson wrote:

Lincoln Hui wrote:


The ones dying of cancer often call themselves Mr. or Mrs. something.

[Edited at 2017-12-28 18:31 GMT]


... if I were a scammer dying of cancer, there's no point trying to wow people with the Minister of Finance angle. Best just to be a lonely Mr. or Mrs. or Ms., creditors banging at the door as you lie prostrate on a flea-ridden bed, bones standing out a hideous white beneath the scrawny grey flesh, just waiting for a gullible mug, I mean a Good Samaritan, to come along and help rip that unforgiving poison out of a rapidly failing body ...


... (thinks) Jeez, it could work, for God's sake. Time to create a few plausible e-mail addresses and dream up a sob story ...



[Edited at 2017-12-28 20:21 GMT]


There is plentiful work awaiting you in Nigeria and Benin, my friend. You even had me reaching for the Kleenex.


Robert, you should read Mervyn's "Little Translator" serial, if you haven't already. You'll need a Kleenex for the one-but-last. And maybe two for the last one, but that's a matter of taste.

[Edited at 2017-12-29 14:14 GMT]


 
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Alejandro Cavalitto
Alejandro Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 05:43
Member (2008)
English to Spanish
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Please keep this discussion on-topic Dec 29, 2017

Hi everyone,

Please keep this thread on topic and in line with site rules. Thank you for your cooperation.

Best regards,
Alejandro


 
Mervyn Henderson (X)
Mervyn Henderson (X)  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
Now, now ... Dec 29, 2017

"And maybe two for the last one, but that's a matter of taste."


... that's naughty-naughtiness, Nikolaki, but thanks for bashing it out anyway.


 
Tina Vonhof (X)
Tina Vonhof (X)
Canada
Local time: 02:43
Dutch to English
+ ...
in Canada Dec 29, 2017

DJHartmann wrote:

In Australia, the only way to be hired as a translator is to have passed NAATI (National Accreditation Authority for Translators and Interpreters) accreditation. https://www.naati.com.au/

Part of the testing is on the code of ethics prescribed by AUSIT (Australian Institute of Interpreters and Translators). https://ausit.org/AUSIT/About/Ethics___Conduct/Code_of_Ethics/AUSIT/About/Code_of_Ethics.aspx

You can only become a member of AUSIT if you have NAATI accreditation (unlike certain US-based translators associations - that are "open to all").

Competence is accepted because the NAATI testing is thorough and hard (90% failure rate), respect is always given (not to the extent of Mr./Mrs. but that's not really Australian culture either), and there is a range of support and guarantee mechanisms for both client and practitioner within the system.

One aspect is professional development, which is required to be able to renew accreditation.

If we had a global form of NAATI accreditation, that could be very useful and would really shake-up this industry. Sadly it's those at the bottom who influence the way the rest of us are treated (silly hours, low rates, unprofessionalism etc.).



It's more or less the same in Canada except that a) it not the law that you have to be accredited but governments, courts, and professional organizations require it; and b) here you have to begin as an associate member of your provincial organization. After a year or two, when you have gained some experience, you write the (national) accreditation exam. Then you are a certified member of the organization. The examination includes an oath of confidentiality, etc.) and everything further is much the same as you describe it.

Some people may never take, or fail, the exam and disappear. Maybe they just set up business on their own and that is not against the law here but they can't do certified translations.

I agree that it would be nice to have more or less that same standards everywhere. I sometimes hear from European agencies that they have to meet ISO standards. Those standards seem to be imposed on agencies, not individuals, and it is then my responsibility to deliver the quality of work required.


 
MK2010
MK2010  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:43
French to English
+ ...
"Degree in translation required" Dec 29, 2017

To me, that is one of the less relevant requirements made by some clients.

[Edited at 2017-12-29 21:43 GMT]


 
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